Guest blogger Ashli Carnicelli is an author and classically trained singer. Ashli’s heartfelt narrative invites readers to embark on a soul-enriching experience through her works such as Cherish: The Joy of Our Mother in Heaven and her monthly newsletter sharing her testimony of Christ “The Pearls”. She recently was featured in LDS Living Magazine for her personal life experiences and reflections on God’s love. Ashli holds her Bachelor of Music Degree in Vocal Performance from The Boston Conservatory, and she and her husband Tony are the parents of four daughters.
Recently I wrote a two-part piece called “Letting Him Prevail”. The blog posts were about letting go of my performing career as an opera singer for marriage and motherhood. When I read the NY Times article about Hannah Neeleman, known on IG as “Ballerina Farm” and the subsequent uproar and every hot take, criticism and opinion under the sun about what Hannah should or should not have done, it made me think of the quote from Theodore Roosevelt about the man in the arena;
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
I have never had the pleasure of meeting Mrs. Neeleman, but if I did, I expect we would be kindred souls. I would smile at her and give her a huge hug. I would tell her she’s doing great. I would tell her I’m proud of her. I would tell her that I would support any decision that she made or makes in the future and cheer her on along the way. And I’ll tell you why.
Because even though I don’t know her, I very intimately know the choice she had to make and the sacrifice she made to have a large family. I know the heartache of having a gift and trying to discern when to set it aside and when to nurture it. I know the wrestle of letting the Lord prevail in my life. You can read about that in “Letting Him Prevail” and “Follow up to Letting Him Prevail“.
I also know that it is absolutely impossible for us to judge another woman’s decisions justly and accurately. When an article comes out such as this, there is so much opportunity for us to offer support. Motherhood is hard no matter what you choose as a woman, is it not? Hard and wonderful at the same time. We waste so much time and energy making assumptions and failing to discern the article for what it was- a clear denunciation of the modern woman and mother. If Mrs. Neeleman was a neurosurgeon with 8 children and became pregnant during medical school, there would be attacks on her “neglect” of her children and her selfishness and other criticisms. Our society is so steeped in tribalism and binary thinking at this time- we try to fit and categorize every post, every meme, every sound bite into what it says about the person it is attached to without room for nuance, deeper understanding or clear perspective. We have stopped asking questions and have instead centered ourselves and our own self righteous judgements.
So, in Hannah’s defense I’m here to tell it like it is. “Having it all” is a myth. A total lie. Bunk. A woman today cannot have a demanding (demanding of time, energy and presence) career and be a traditional stay at home Mom. You can’t be home full time with small children devoting every moment to them AND have a full time (40 plus hours per week) career outside of your home. You CAN have a demanding career and hire help with the children, or have your spouse take on the role of primary caregiver. But you can’t be a world traveling performer and have dinner on the table at 6pm every night and be found on the floor at 11am on a random weekday playing endless rounds of Candyland with your toddler(s), or behind the wheel of your multiperson vehicle shuttling children to school and activities for 3 plus hours per day. You can hire someone to do it in your place or have your husband be the one, but -You. Can’t. Anyone who says otherwise is full of doo-doo. I said it.
Also- the “trad wife” arrangement requires resources. How many families can exist on one income? Or how many families have to have one parent work a night shift and the other the day in order to have someone care for the children? Or, how many families need to earn enough to make paying for childcare make sense? I quit my job just before having my 4th child. I chose to stay home, and later in doing the math I realized that paying a nanny for that many children was the same cost as my part-time salary. For one woman, continuing to work outside of the home is worth this cost for their sense of purpose, their career and their mental health. For another, it isn’t. How can we judge another woman’s choices? Her heart? Her desires? What’s good for her and her family? Um, we can’t.
I didn’t grow up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I was raised by an energetic feminist New England democrat agnostic Mom and an incredible, hardworking, forward thinking, successful and intelligent Dad- both parents who went after her dreams while raising me, their only child. It seems to me that this is what Mrs. Neeleman has done, and what I have done too- prioritizing my highest dreams and dreaming new dreams and making them happen along the way.
When I was in my senior year of high school and ready to fly the nest to the Conservatory, my dreams of traveling the world doing my art (in my case, singing) burned so brightly. I received a tumult of opinions and unsolicited advice from well meaning teachers and coaches. Some suggested I abandon my dreams of performing and become a music teacher instead. Some suggested I swear off dating for my entire college career to focus on my singing. My Mom finally sat me down;
“Ashli- you can have it all- just not all at once.” she said. “You will have seasons in which you will need to make different choices based on your highest priorities. You will have seasons when you can go full speed ahead with your career, and seasons where you focus on your marriage and your children.” Her advice has stuck with me to this day and was the voice of reason that actually made sense to me as I embarked on my Conservatory education for Voice. It made my decisions easier as I met my husband and fell in love, and wanted to support him in his dreams of becoming a Physician and start our family. When we had our oldest daughter during his medical school training we needed to send her to full time daycare at 9 weeks old because my full time income supported our family. Conversely, our 4th daughter was born during his Fellowship and has never left my side except for the occasional date night or when she spends time with her loving Grandparents. Both scenarios are hard in their own ways! Ask any Mom!
The NY Times article also failed to recognize that Hannah and her family make decisions being led by the Spirit. For me, that has made all of the difference. It’s quite laughable, really, for us to judge one another based on what the Spirit tells us to do in our lives individually. It’s kind of like telling the Relief Society President who was called and set apart how you think she should do her job. The Spirit will lead her to do things differently than you would if you were called and set apart. To me, this is miraculous evidence that the Lord and His Spirit are working in all of us. The world won’t see it this way. So, let’s set the example and be loving and supportive of someone who is trying their best to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh. “ If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit” Galatians 5:25
22 Responses
You know, you have some really great points, IF she is making the choices about what she wants. However, from what I saw on some of the video, that may not be the case. He husband answers question for her, he talks over her, and just how he went about courting her raise several red flags. I can’t say that she is for sure emotionally abused, let’s just say that in my work as a social worker working with battered and emotionally abused women, that he has some of those same characteristics. Now, admittedly, I have only peeked into her world, so I can’t judge, but I think the women who are upset by some of what they have seen also have some good points.
Now, as far as can a woman be happy and fulfilled as a stay at home mother? Sure. I look back from my 70s and I was actually happier doing the “Ballerina Farms” kind of stuff than my stressful career counseling battered women or rape victims, although that had it rewards. It was kind of high stress. But I also loved the time I was at home full time and we had a big garden and fruit trees and I did a lot of canning and making from scratch. There was a peace that full time work just didn’t allow. But my husband didn’t promise me I would be teaching dance, and then the studio got used for homeschooling. He didn’t answer questions that were directed at me or constantly correct what I said as I watched the “Ballerina Farms” husband do. So, I just have questions if she is as happy as she pretends. The getting so exhausted she is sick for weeks, and just other small things say she is putting on a fake show of happy.
My other point is that the assumption that the woman gives up her career and the man makes no equal sacrifices is not fair. Why not a few more house husbands or husbands who quit their job to support their Vice President wife? Our culture has no safety nets for full time housewives whose husband dies or divorces them. And the respect given by society, even within the church is given to those women who disobeyed the prophet about staying home and had a career. It isn’t fair, especially in the church for full time wives and mothers to be given no support, and so little respect. The church pays lip service to how wonderful mothers are, then abandons them if they have needs. Our culture has problems and I think it is perfectly fair to talk about those issues.
I can’t help but wonder how many men ask themselves that question when they become dads. I suspect the number is a lot lower than it is for women and that feels deeply problematic to me. I believe in women supporting other women, but I also believe in questioning the systems that are set up so women are the only ones who feel the need to give up their dreams to have a family while men feel free to pursue theirs with fewer obstacles, shame, guilt, or pressure.
I totally understand where you are coming from and have asked myself the same questions! It’s important to remember though that being an artist, a performer is completely different from any other career. I honestly don’t know of any male dancers or musicians who have a solid, stable home life with many children at home.
I would point out to readers that Ashli didn’t abandon all of her dreams to become a mom, she just altered her path through personal prayer and reflection. She’s currently working towards becoming a NICU nurse, for example – which is much more family friendly than a performance career where you travel ten months out of the year.
Ashli is also an adult convert, which means she didn’t grow up with many of the messages women in the church have found to have been so toxic in our lives. She was raised by feminist parents. As a feminist who believed she could do anything, she willingly chose to step away from a professional performance career (into a different career path) in order to have a family.
She’s sharing the perspective of how a woman like Hannah Neeleman might have actually experienced the ballet world and decided it wasn’t for her.
We welcome all perspectives on this topic and accept guest posts from women with many different opinions. Thank you for sharing your unique perspective as a performer with us, Ashli!
Love you so so much Abby!!! ❤️❤️❤️
This is such a thoughtful, kind piece. Part of our sisterhood, Hannah, has been going through it, and I’m afraid many of us have made it worse with thoughtless comments. Ashli has really given me a lot to think about.
I, like others, have genuine concern over how Hannah’s marital relationship was characterized in the article. But I will do better about judging her choices.
There are some good points here that I agree with. Like, of course Hannah has every right to make her own choices free from judgement by others. And she has every right to interpret spiritual promptings and live her life based on those feelings. But the main issue any article worth it’s salt has pointed out, post-The Times article, is the patriarchal influence that cannot be separated from Hannah’s decisions. Her deference to her husband’s timeline for marriage and lifestyle felt unsettling to me. Hannah definitely played a part in making those decisions, but were they steeped in LDS indoctrination and patriarchal influence? To me, yes. I’m sure she believes wholeheartedly that she has made decisions based on what she wants. I’m open to the idea that that may be true. But one can’t help but wonder, if the patriarchal influence had been taken away, would her decisions remain the same? Likely not. Obviously Hannah is not alone in this. I feel it in my own life too, as an active (but progressive) member of the church. Hannah just seems to be an extreme example of it all.
You bring up good points and I have nothing but respect for the life you have chosen for yourself. As others have suggested, the discomfort I felt when I read the NYTimes article was the apparent overlording of the husband throughout the process of the interview. The impression we are left with is that Hannah’s personal sun is trying valiantly to shine within the confines of a life she chooses but with heavy interference from her spouse. It seems to me that conditioned, cultural, generational systems of duress have provided a way for her to see it as what is right and good. I think the reactions are not so much judgment but concern triggered by hard lessons unearthed by our own similar choices and healing journeys. I believe that she will learn from all of it. It is her path to take. The lessons will continue to show up until she learns what she needs from them and my prayer for her is hope that her husband will grow with her and be willing to learn the lessons by her side as well as having the support she needs as she moves forward.
I am a musician,graduate of the Juilliard school, mom of 5, working orchestral musician, married … all the things. Sorry long post—Lots of feelings about BF.
As an artist, in my life I did give up opportunities for lesser ones because I felt it was the right at the time. Now, I feel very differently about those decisions, which were not made without my inherited biases from my religious upbringing. I see SO clearly the lifelong conditioning I received as a female in the LDS church. I see in my life that I did defer to my husband’s career (similar to the author) and that never once did I expect my husband to defer to mine. (And yes, many close male family members are physicians and their wives became literally “single” mothers during the years of training and residency, it is so demanding, my heart goes out to all you ladies) But pointing out in BF and OP, there is a hierarchy here that elevates the husbands path vs the wife’s path. Truly considering this situation for all LDS women—compromising to a point that may or may not have as much earning potential but the payoffs may come in different ways and thousands of adjustments could be made to make sure both are thriving. More interesting conversations need to be had in family and religious settings about still-alive-and-well automaticity of the wife deferring to the husband in the career arena.
And yes Im a working artist mother — I don’t feel like I miss anything. Why do I need to be the one doing ALL of the pickups or dinners or the one always playing on the floor to be a worthy, good mother?? Is that what it means to be a good mother, that you have to do all the above mentioned things alone and by yourself with your kids? To refute— I actually do get it all. The statement “you can’t have it all” is only true if one is unwilling to let someone else help or partner is unwilling/unable to adjust to be a full partner in all aspects of childcare.
To be very honest I was also conditioned to feel guilty about that for a very long time, but I am actually so proud that all of my daughters and my son have seen me NOT sacrifice every piece of myself to motherhood. That my daughters will know they don’t ever have to do that.
Lastly, I also don’t question the idea that the Spirit can tell one person something and another person something differently. I validate those feelings about what the Spirit says to someone. What I cannot validate is the belief that the Spirit is telling a woman anywhere that she “must”, “to be a good mother”, is “worthy” only she sacrifices herself to people or systems that could and probably will chew her up and spit her out. I really hope this doesn’t happen for BF, no one deserves that. But the article was pointing to cracks in the facade. This is what the “world” is calling out in BF, in all of the red-flag moments. Yes the world doesn’t understand the religious patriarchy soup, but we do 100%.
I wasn’t raised in the LDS church with the messaging. Thats why I’m sharing my perspective here as a convert and someone who was raised more “in the world”.
Karen, I think you’ve touched on something really key here. What does the individual need to feel like a “worthy” or “good” mother? I believe it’s different for each woman, and religious upbringing can certainly influence how one finds that definition.
If one defines a good mother as one who is always the one playing on the floor and picking the kids up, then their choices would be different than someone who shares those duties more. Both can be OK. I personally don’t have an issue with anyone defining motherhood differently than I do. That has a STRONG caveat, though, that that definition must be personal. I can’t decide what good motherhood looks like to me and then force that on you or any other woman.
PS Good for you! I’m impressed with this blurb about your life. And “hi!” From an Eastman and IU Jacobs alum! We performers are out there!
YES YES YES!!! Could not agree with both of you more. There are a million ways to be a wonderful Mother and every Mom can define what that looks like for herself! ❤️
Agreed. Women should absolutely get to choose for themselves what works. But in the case of BF it seems like there are a lot of things that aren’t adding up to the true definition choice. Which is what everyone is arguing for or against. What does “choice” mean? Is it as simple as just choosing what you want? Or consider what does “choice” amount to when one’s lifelong religious upbringing (or a very dominant spouse) is telling you there is only one acceptable/righteous/worthy/essential/foreordained choice on the multiple choice test.
I do support her choice if made in full consent. Also last point, I don’t feel uncomfortable having these conversations about a woman (or maybe man?) who has intentionally put herself and her family’s lifestyle and choices under the microscope of the world and turned it into a million dollar brand—to influence people, for women to aspire to or emulate, or to just be curious about. If she’s offering herself and her children up for examination for monetary purposes, then the BF company should expect scrutiny. Positive and negative. And, with all things social media and life in general, reality turns out to be messier than one would like.
Yes, being told your whole life that there is only one way does not make it just a “choice.” Totally agree.
And the influencer aspect makes the whole thing sticky, because by definition they are trying to “influence” people to want their lifestyle. This makes influencers more prone to cultivate a narrative about why you should think their way is the best way (and that they’re practically perfect). I think it’s completely fair to ask questions and look more closely at the motivations behind an influencer’s business.
I wish I could upvote this! I have two comments somewhat defending her lifestyle without liking every aspect of it, and frankly being annoyed at how potentially manufactured it is for subscribers. But some of the stuff can be wonderful if it’s right for you.
I first learned about BF in the NYTimes article about her being in the Mrs. World pageant not even 2 weeks post-partum from baby 8. That is not my jam, but I thought if this is what fuels her soul, go girl. This new article from the London Times was alarming. Not so much because of her choices, but the husbands. Someone shared the records – she doesn’t own the BF business, but he does. Him talking over her, correcting her, never really leaving the reporter alone with her, talking so self-assured about them having enough kids to fill the 15 passenger van when she is saying she is older and maybe not, her only getting an epidural when her husband WASN’T at the birth, her truly having no space for herself is all VERY ALARMING. I work with survivors of SA and DV. There were so many things happening there that were concerning. I hope she is truly happy in her life and I want to support any woman’s choices. But his behavior and their described history made me feel sick. It looks so sweet and supportive, but can be SO manipulative and controlling. I sincerely hope she and her children are OK.
I’m positive these are all business decisions and are not what’s actually happening in real life, some of this is explained by my other comment. Here’s more evidence, between my husband’s large family their siblings lifestyle and my own family, many, perhaps most of which have one aspect of Ballerina farm in it or another, so much of the stuff they present is bunk. Between our in-laws we have…
*3 large families, 1 of them headed by an influencer who occasionally homeschools, and another by a person that won a pageant as a mom and went on to be an influencer
*2 farm moms: 1 that’s trying to start a farm and teach children simultaneously (not her own), 1 had a ranch and gave it up
*1 mom that was a promising professional dancer at a school known for its top dancers and now coregraphs from home
*1 homeschool, make lot from scratch mom
*4 moms that are very wealthy, 1 of them their parents are as well and owns a major big business in utah
*3 moms that mostly or only gave birth naturally
*1 of them has outside help, but tries to hide it
*2 of them have seen influencers face to face , 1 knew a famous latter-day saint that got in trouble with the law and knew their lifestyle firsthand, 1 of them went to blogger conferences and is a very social person and has seen their lifestyles up front.
Most things on Ballerina Farm are an idealized fake misrepresented version of how people actually live these lifestyles with plenty of help to make it look good (she may not have a nanny, but they’ve admitted to help elsewhere), and as I mentioned in another comment, you can’t get as many followers if your lifestyle appears balanced and controversy-free. Not a single popular family did it without something to gossip about so others would tune in. We all know reality TV shows do this, and celebrities have to land in the tabloids per their agent’s advice, but some of us can’t fathom the possiblity that there are saavy business influencer parents who know the value of this. This is totally a thing–just look at the reddit thread utahinfluencerdrama.
However I do believe that if they take church teachings seriously (don’t know, she’s not a fan of garments apparently, and disregarded the church coming out against beauty pageants several decades ago)–since the family proclamation and the temple make the man the provider, it is reasonable to conclude that they may have decided that he needs to have the upper hand in deciding how to sensationalize themselves–so it’s not impossible. If this is the case, I think that was sweet of him to decide to be the jerk so she didn’t have to deal with as much mom hate–I say that because I can’t get over that I’m positive this is fake. People have even come forward who know her and say that she actually has a pretty strong voice and is coregraphing these decisions. If they get into real trouble with their children, divorce, or those kids grow up and won’t accept hush money, then we’ll know what controversies are as bad as they seem, because some controversies are real. However it is detrimental to the rest of us members to have to deal with these stereotypes they are pushing. Love of money really is the root of all evil, not diversity.
I am happy to respect any woman’s personal choices pertaining to seasons of life and following the spirit. What I’m opposed to with an influencer like Hannah is something else– bad, self-centered values that hurt people rather than help them, reflected by her using her beauty and wealth to get more money and attention, objectifying herself, flaunting her lifestyle to followers who have much less and for whom watching her life is some kind of empty escape. Beauty and lifestyle influencers contribute to eating disorders other sources of unwellness for our younger people. As an influencer, I suspect Hannah has some fucked-up approaches to herself, others and her role in the world.
I agree that she is setting a bad example, see my comment below
When I was in law school, judges would periodically come up for brown bag lunches, and share their wisdom. The female judges were fond of assuring the women that they could indeed have it all, and their suggested method was always the same: Hire it done. Wow. So practical for young, indebted, relatively low paid lawyers.
Oh-mi-gosh…thank you! I thought this article was going to take a darker more judgemental turn. We NEED MORE ARTICLES LIKE THIS. I really appreciate it. Thank you for not saying she’s irresponsible for having 8 children like everyone else. I know that people get more suscribers if they appear to have serious faults that people can’t take their eyes off. I suspect they incorporate that in as a business choice and then laugh at all of the slander.
My only beef is looking at past prophecies that talk about the women of the future being scriptorians, not concerned about a vain appearance, not worshipping men, having well-adjusted families and passionate discussions about the gospel, all of it leading to more converts because of the fruits…and knowing influencers are often messing that image up.
Ashli, I love that you got to live that life, but to me, your choice is in direct contrast to what I’m seeing.
What bothers me is that it reminds me too much of my childhood. My mom married my dad right out of high school. She was a valedictorian and could have gone to Ricks College on a scholarship, but she slept with my dad before marriage and was pretty much told the right thing to do was to get married. (Her LDS Bishop told her so). And back then women were expected to be mothers solely. So, she married my dad in the temple. But did she really have a choice?
They had me and my other siblings fairly quickly (she felt impressed to start having a family asap) and that turned out to be a good thing as they divorced my senior year of high school. Oh, he was abusive. Signs my mom saw, but didn’t recognize because why would a Priesthood holder be abusive?
I didn’t have nannies growing up. My mom had to work because my dad couldn’t hold down a job, and with only HS education, neither could work great jobs. They worked as custodians for the LDS Church and so I grew up hanging out at churches after school because my mom couldn’t afford childcare.
I won’t go into the whole story as to what lead to my parents’ divorce except my mom didn’t initiate it. But she felt it was right. She stayed way too long because of that temple marriage and not recognizing that her kids were being abused.
And that is what bothers me about Hannah. Maybe the article is skewed, but my hearts bleeds for a woman who seems to have chosen this life, but her husband sounds like my dad. That’s what worries me. Because it doesn’t seem to be an equal partnership, like your marriage does.