I remember talking with Margaret Toscano fifteen or so years ago about the recently published David Paulsen and Martin Pulido article, “A Mother There: A Survey of Historical Teachings about Mother in Heaven,“ which had made a big splash in the Mormon studies world. After all, Margaret had, along with her sister Janice Allred, been warned to stop writing about Heavenly Mother. They continued to do so and both were eventually excommunicated. But here was this new article analyzing hundreds of church leaders’ statements about her, published in BYU Studies of all places. What did Margaret make of this, I wanted to know.
I’m sure Margaret had insightful things to say about the article, but the one thing I still remember distinctly is that she said that that article hurt a little. It hurt because it seemed to imply there really was never any “sacred silence” being enforced by church authorities about Heavenly Mother discourse and theology. It hurt because it ignored the severe price women like her had paid in the past for thinking, talking, and theologizing about Mormonism’s feminine divine. It hurt because it felt like it was erasing her experience.
Margaret’s reaction may help explain my own mixed feelings about Camille Johnson’s recent talk at the BYU Women’s Conference, in which she spoke about pursuing her career and motherhood simultaneously. Tamarra Kemsley has a great writeup on it in the Tribune (which particularly focuses on Johnson’s encouragement to women to have children, a topic I won’t be addressing here), and a quote from the talk has been featured the Church’s Instagram. In this talk, Johnson said:
“I pursued an education, both undergraduate and a law degree. I was married midway through my legal education. I had my first son the year after I passed the bar. I had babies, and my husband and I loved and nurtured them while we were both working. It was busy, sometimes hectic; we were stretched and sometimes tired. I supported him, and he supported me. Family was, and still is, our top priority. My husband and I sought inspiration in these choices and in the timing. It was what we felt impressed to do. We were trying to let God prevail.
“From a financial and professional perspective, it would have made sense to put off having children until I was more established in my career. In letting God prevail, we sometimes do things that others can’t make sense of.
“I juggled pregnancy, having babies, nurturing children, carpool, Little League, Church responsibilities, being a supportive spouse, and my professional pursuits. It was a joyful juggle I wouldn’t change. We felt confident in our course because we were letting God prevail.”
I feel, maybe not hurt so much, but more a sense of consternation that a significant part of the story has been left out.
Don’t get me wrong. I think it’s fantastic that President Johnson followed her own conscience and figured out a way to participate in her career while having kids. I love that she’s laying this path out as a respected possibility for Mormon mothers. And I think she’s also setting out a great example of placing primacy on own relationship with deity. All very good things.
But a huge part of her story as a working LDS mother in the 1980s and 90s is glaringly missing. What about all those authoritative messages that she heard loud and clear in her formative years that emphasized the evils of working motherhood? She would have been in her mid-twenties in 1987, pursuing her law education or career, when President Benson quoted extensively from President Kimball’s 1977 “Mothers, Come Home” talk, saying:
“Wives, come home from the typewriter, the laundry, the nursing, come home from the factory, the café. No career approaches in importance that of wife, homemaker, mother—cooking meals, washing dishes, making beds for one’s precious husband and children. Come home, wives, to your husbands. Make home a heaven for them. Come home, wives, to your children, born and unborn.”
and
“The husband is expected to support his family and only in an emergency should a wife secure outside employment. Her place is in the home, to build the home into a heaven of delight. Numerous divorces can be traced directly to the day when the wife left the home and went out into the world into employment.”
She would have been raised in the era when church leaders were saying things like:
“Earning a few dollars more for luxuries cloaked in the masquerade of necessity – or a so-called opportunity for self-development of talents in the business world, a chance to get away from the mundane responsibilities of the home – these are all satanic substitutes for clear thinking.” (H. Burke Peterson, 1974)
She would have been about twenty or so when Ezra Taft Benson said, “It is a misguided idea that a woman should leave the home, where there is a husband and children present, to prepare educationally and financially for an unforeseen eventuality.”
Those messages were real and pervasive in North American Mormonism during this time period. That rhetoric absolutely influenced women’s experience with Mormonism and affected not only their life choices, but also their feelings of self-worth, their sense of guilt, and the expansiveness through which they could view the future and their place in it.
Even though I was a teen in the 1990s when working mother rhetoric was softening a bit, I too felt the weight of it. I have no doubt this discourse influenced some of my choices in my twenties and encouraged me to aim lower professionally than I might have otherwise. And as for the women living through that moment in 1987 when President Benson told mothers to come home from the workplace, well, we know the devastation that incurred. Lavina Fielding Anderson, examining the repercussions of Benson’s 1987 “To the Mothers in Zion” talk, wrote in a 1988 Dialogue article:
“Overwhelmingly, the reaction I have heard from women has been one of pain and of anger, whether they have been employed or not. One woman, who has worked all her adult life and has five children, said that her husband, who was a bishop, had been besieged during the week following the address by women full of hurt and resentment.” (p. 105)
Authoritative messages about the evils of mothers working had real impact on the lives of LDS women. Because of them, we very well may have lost, to a significant degree, a generation of LDS women in North America developing careers and therefore decreasing their own financial vulnerability. I’m sure we all know middle-aged or older LDS women whose marriages ended and who were left in terrifyingly vulnerable positions, having to try to reenter the workplace after decades of not being in it.
So what I want to know is: how did President Johnson metabolize those messages? How did she live “joyful[ly],” without regret, guilt, and self-recrimination as a working mother in the 1980s and 90s, given these very strong currents telling her that her choices were selfish and would possibly bring calamity on her family?
Again, I’m glad she talked positively about being a working mother. This is a good rhetorical shift. I celebrate a future in which Mormon mothers are less torn up over the work-motherhood issue, when they realize that it’s absolutely valid and righteous to pursue both simultaneously.
But I don’t think we should forget the distance we’ve traveled to get to this moment. As with many other topics pertaining to the church, it just doesn’t help to ignore past reality. Let’s acknowledge the difficulties, the contradictions, and the ways women have had to wrestle with God, conscience, desires, and authority in the face of negative rhetoric from church leaders about working mothers. Let’s acknowledge the fact that so many statements from church leaders in years past emerged in specific cultural contexts and were reflections of their time and people’s limited understandings in that time. Let’s acknowledge progress as women are encouraged to decide for themselves, in concert with their conscience and inspiration, the path and pattern of their lives.
This talk was an important start to President Johnson’s working mother story. But LDS women now are craving to hear the rest of her story, including the messy and difficult parts. The parts where she confronted head-on authoritative rhetoric that critiqued and misunderstood her choices, and where she learned to place primacy on her own inspiration. Now that will be a story I’ll be excited to hear.
129 Responses
Well said, Caroline. I had many of the same thoughts and questions upon reading the quote.
I am 82 years old now and I remember vividly when I heard Pres. Benson’s talk. At the time I had decided that I needed to enter the workplace because I was struggling with the very real possibility that my marriage w might not survive the infidelity of my husband and “eternal companion”. I had/have eight children and I was terrified that I would not be able to convince a judge that I would be able to support my children and that because of that I might lose custody of them. I cried many tears over my decision to continue working. My mind continually wrestled with trying to justify my decision as one of those “emergencies” the prophet had spoken of. Recently, as I was writing in my journal, I made a list that included: “the prophet said, “Mothers come home” and I didn’t.” Some of my children have chosen to not follow the “Covenant path” and I continue to pray for forgiveness for not “following the prophet”. When I read sister Johnson’s talk, I thought about her statement about how she had chosen to “let God prevail” and how, maybe I should have listened more carefully to hear answers to my prayers about continuing to work outside of my home. My husband and I worked hard to save our marriage and when he passed through the veil in 2018 we had been married for 57 years. We survived his excommunication and were able to hold our family together and return together to the temple, but still I have had thoughts that the decision I made has required my continued repentance and my sadness that all of my children have not remained active members of the church. What do we do when “Follow the Propher” and “Let God prevail” seem in conflict? We suffer and await the healing power of the atonement of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Carol, Your situation, as you describe, it was impossible. My heart is breaking at all the pressure we put on women. To keep a marriage intact. But also to be prepared to support the family should it fail. That somehow all of our children’s choices whether or not to stay in the church, rest on our shoulders. Thank you so much for your vulnerable comments that really capture the tension When official church rhetoric does not lineup with personal inspiration.
Carol, Your situation, as you describe, was impossible. My heart is breaking at all the pressure we put on women. To keep a marriage intact. But also to be prepared to support the family should it fail. That somehow all of our children’s choices whether or not to stay in the church, rest on our shoulders. Thank you so much for your vulnerable comments that really capture the tension When official church rhetoric does not lineup with personal inspiration.
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Oh, Carol, thank you for sharing. You were bearing such enormous burdons, and you did the absolute best you could have. You deserve nothing but commendation for doing what you had to do for yourself and your family.
Carol,
I’m sad to read this but I understand why you feel this way. These messages were planted deep. Please know your children’s choices are their choices. You should not hold yourself to blame. You did what you needed to do at the time to try and protect your family. I think the words of the prophet then did not match many situation. I pray you are able to let go of your feelings of failure and just love your children exactly as they are. Sending love.
“Please know your children’s choices are their choices. You should not hold yourself to blame. ”
This is absolutely true!!
Oh no. You break my heart. You did NOTHING WRONG! How dare the church put that pressure on you. You did the best thing for your family. The prophet cannot ever tell you what the right thing to do is for you. He gives suggestions. That ultimately, is between you and God…. God will always support you, he loves you.
As far as your children not being active. AGAIN do not take that on. It’s their decision that has nothing to do with you. It’s their journey now. Not yours. We all gave free agency including our adult children. You raised them the best you could. That’s all any parent can do. Just love them for who they are and dump the guilt. First however love yourself. Do not go against your instincts and never let the church think for you. It’s your life and your journey. I just get so upset when I hear another sister feeling guilt for something they are not responsible for. . But because “our Prophet” said it then it must be true for everyone. Well it isn’t. Not every mother could go home I remember that statement. And it was horrible. Putting that on moms that had to work outside the home. If the church cared that much for those of us that had to work, then they could have supported us financially. So we could go home. But no they had to come up with more unrealistic guilt. I was a single parent, and it haunted me. But, above all remember they are mortal men. They can make mistakes. I swear they don’t think things thru. Does that sound like something Jesus would say? Knowing how many women HAVE to work. You my dear sister have the power to communicate with God all on your own. And you have more insight on yourself and family than anyone. You go to prayer yourself for YOUR answer. You think God doesn’t know what is right for you? Stop listening to the negative voices in your head. I was raised in the church. And it took years to undo the dogma. So I get it. Follow Jesus and your Heavenly Father. I promise they will guide you.
Carol, you dear sister, I am so sorry for all you have endured! Please consider: if our Heavenly Parents, who know their children perfectly and I would dare say have perfect parenting skills, still had 1/3 of those children exercise their agency and leave heaven rather than follow the plan of salvation, then I believe they fully appreciate the agency your children have used to leave the Church and could/would hardly judge or condemn you for your children’s actions. Please, please, please, do NOT punish yourself for something that is NOT on you. Anybody who thinks their children are all active in the Church soley because of their own actions/they didn’t work outside of the home is essentially saying they are better/more successful at raising children than Heavenly Mother and Father. You did all you could, more than most are even capable of. Please feel the peace you deserve after all of your hard work and hurt and love and tears. God will take care of it from here ♥️
I feel this so deeply, Caroline – and I was so frustrated by the response to this talk (women who grew up with me saying things like, “the prophet never said stay home with your kids”, or, “it was always a matter of personal revelation”). I did NOT feel like it was an option for me to pursue a career, and now I find myself at mid-life with limited options because of that.
I wrote this blog post very recently on the exact same topic:
https://exponentii.org/blog/i-mightve-been-a-rocket-scientist-like-my-dad-but-i-was-a-girl/
In it I pulled comments from about twenty other women who had the same experience I did – setting aside careers and ambitions to follow the prophet, and regretting it later. This is the experience of so, so many women in the church. I’m very happy for the next generation, but so frustrated that my experience is being erased, as if I was the dumb one who obeyed the prophet and should’ve someone known better when I was young.
Abby, I love your post so much. It hurts whenever I think of women who set aside ambition in order to be obedient and now have regrets. And I especially hurt for the women who were left in a perilously vulnerable financial position because of their obedience. I know of more than one older woman whose husband has left her and she is left with very little, struggling to survive, since she never developed a career.
I heard recently that the largest demographic of people in poverty are divorced, older, former stay at home mothers. I don’t remember the source, but it makes sense that older women without any job skills, resume, personal retirement accounts or network to rely on for work would fair quite poorly financially.
It’s awful that we tell women to rely on a romantic relationship lasting an entire lifetime to be their financial security (for themselves and their children). Men can leave their marriages and survive financially. Women often don’t have this option.
Absolutely. It is such a risk for a woman to stake her entire future and long-term survival on a romantic relationship. Sometimes it works out fine. But probably just as often, it doesn’t — and women who stayed home are the ones who pay the higher price.
AND HER HUSBAND.
Let’s address this as well. My amazing and fulfilling career ended mostly because my husband travels full-time for his. When I read Johnson’s post, I thought: how nice for her. Where did she find that husband? At church? Because I didn’t see him there.
Yes, he must have been a remarkable LDS husband to be supportive of her career goals at that time.
Wanna know what I want to know more than anything? What her daycare situation looked like. Free daycare from an aunt for 16 years, like supreme court justice Amy Coney Barrett admits? A stay at home husband? As a Utahan with a newborn in 1998 there were ZERO infant childcare options, so I went down to part time, begged two friends to watch my newborn for 2 afternoons a week, and then eventually quit because those friends were just doing me a short-term favor until I could figure out what else was possible.
So often the careers of successful women are built on the backs of free labor/or low paid labor of other women.
Yes, this is a huge unacknowledged part of her story! Huge.
She had a full-time nanny.
This actually sickens me. How dare the leaders have a woman speak to us about pursuing her career goals who could afford a full time nanny??? This was not a struggle. So out of touch with reality.
Cynthia, you point to a big part of her story that is also unacknowleded — privilege. If she had a full-time nanny, she was working with an amount of wealth that many of us lack. I’m sorry to hear about the sad lack of childcare options that eventually led to you quitting.
Thank you for sharing that part of your story. Free labor from women is why so many others succeed in their paid labors. Thus us all so messed up.
And, let’s be honest, the only reason why men with families succeed—because of the free/unpaid labor of their wives and mothers and daughters.
Yes, this. My mom was one of those low-paid women who cared for other people’s kids and cleaned their houses so she could be “home” with us. Home most of the time yes, but also financially strapped and physically present but emotionally unavailable. Having my parents stressed about finances had serious ramifications for my family of origin. Constant reminders to buy the red reduced income lunch tickets that we qualified for and not the blue full cost lunch tickets.
Not only are women’s careers built on the backs of women’s low/unpaid labor, MEN’S careers are also built up on the backs of women’s unpaid or low-paid labor. Pres Nelson didn’t have ten kids and work as a surgeon while also being the one to take out the trash and cook dinner.
I was DETERMINED to be an OB/GYN or a pediatrician that specialized in down syndrome (ask my mom she heard it constantly) and the ONLY reason I did not was because church leaders told me I could not be a doctor and a mother. You know what damaged my children…. a miserable mom for many of their formidable years. This post on the church’s web page STUNG this week. I think it’s awesome that she ignored church leadership and followed her heart and dreams knowing she could be both an attorney and a mother. I agree 100% that the issue is the church pretending these teachings did not harm so many women and gas lighting us that Camille did not ignore church leadership teachings that were so prevalent at the time she would have been doing her schooling.
Suzi, how devastating that you gave up your dreams of being a doctor because of this kind of rhetoric and because you were trying to be obedient. How many more women did exactly as you did? It’s so sad to think about. The repurcussions of this rhetoric on a generation of women have been massive.
I’m also one of them.
I am also one of them. 60 years old and huge regrets that I didn’t develop my career like I wanted. I had zero female mentors—absolutely nobody in my circle encouraged me to do anything except get married and have lots of children. I love my husband and our two children, but every damn day I wish I had done more with my life.
“ I don’t think we should forget the distance we’ve traveled to get to this moment. As with many other topics pertaining to the church, it just doesn’t help to ignore past reality.”
Thank you for this, Caroline. I could not agree more.
And I hate the phrase “let God prevail!” It implies that you are more faithful if you passively give way to the expectations of current Church leadership, even though, as we have seen, those expectations can change. It implies that refraining from trusting oneself is a sign of faith, which is totally inconsistent with the sacredness of agency.
Thanks, Emily! I think I might be reading “let God prevail” differently than you. I read that phrase as her saying (at least in two of the three instances): “I followed my own personal revelation [to keep working].” It seems like a code which covers her doing what she thinks as right, even if it’s unusual. Or maybe I’m reading that wrong? I need to go back and reread.
I don’t really know what she means by the phrase and your reading of it is probably right! I mostly object to it because it’s echoing Pres Nelson, and I don’t like how he has used it, and how it’s showing up more and more frequently.
Yes, I totally get how it would sound grating if it’s an echo of President Nelson, and if in the context he often uses it, it implies passivity and a lack of agency. It would be interesting to go back and see what his usage of it has been and if our women leaders are taking the phrase and employing it differently for their own ends.
That would be so interesting! I should look up the use of this phrase in Nelson’s talks and see if he is consistently using it how I think he is.
FWIW, the phrase reminds me of how, when I was an engaged 21-year-old, my aunt asked me if I planned to use birth control. She said she and her husband “let the Lord decide” – and they have 12 children. Get real. For two fertile people with a regular sex life, waiting on what the Lord will decide is akin to dropping an apple and seeing whether the Lord decides it will go up, down, or sideways.
Emily, this feels so important, yes! What about agency!
Letting God prevail might imply that we’re not using our God-given agency to make decisions. My best decisions have come after significant study, seeking and wrestle. My worst decisions came when I simply felt “inspired” to do something. I realize now through experience that God wants us to use our agency and not simply defer to an external authority.
I remember speaking to the bishop in the late ’80’s about a calling and mentioning that I planned to go back to school to finish my degree. He told me in no uncertain terms that I should not do that, but just stay home with my children. I ignored him, and went back anyway, eventually certifying to teach and having a career I loved. Still, I felt guilty. I have reflected many times on that. Thank you for this article.
Holly, I’m so glad you shrugged off his order and pursued your passion, but I’m sorry that statements like his caused you guilt and heartache. There’s an ocean of heartache out there because of this kind of rhetoric — both from women who kept working in the face of it, and those that quit work to be obedient.
Isn’t it interesting that he felt good about extending church callings that would surely require time and energy away from your family but a career was problematic? I’m glad you were able to follow your own promptings.
Oh, those two facts are definitely related. The church wants women out of the workforce so they can exploit us for free labor.
That is the story I would like to hear, too! Thanks for this, Caroline.
Caroline, thank you for writing this out. It echos my thought exactly. I applaud that Pres. Johnson followed her own conscience (I’m going to have to borrow the phrase “Letting God prevail” next time someone questions my personal choices) but without acknowledging the environment within which she had all these choices her words ring a little bit hollow.
I agree with all the comments about wanting to know more about how this all happened because it seems so far outside the experiences of so many. I felt that I was pretty outside the norm just because my husband and I discussed which one of us would be the stay-at-home parent. It ended up being me because I had been trained for it my whole life and he had not, but we never considered not having one of us at home full-time when our children were small. I have been lucky and have a rewarding career post full-time parenting and my husband’s much increased salary makes my still smaller one not impactful, but I think I am very lucky in that respect.
Yes, I think we should all start using “Letting God prevail” anytime we want to talk about us making choices that go against the norm of our religious culture. 🙂 You were at the progressive forefront of Mormondom if you and your husband discussed which parent would stay at home! That was never a conversation between me and my husband. It was always absolutely assumed that he would work full-time and I would be primarily responsible for kids. I wish I had thought bigger and broader when I was younger.
I listened to this talk in its entirety because I was eager to hear a woman’s voice at a church conference for a keynote address (we all know how rare it is for that to happen, and how it can just be taken away at the whims of the hierarchy). The framework of her talk were the words of President Nelson (was it really a woman’s voice after all?), especially the message “let God prevail.”
It felt as though she was telling us at the beginning of the talk to follow the prophet. Listen to his words every day. The prophet is the literal mouthpiece of God.
So to tell the story of her professional life in the same talk — when we all know what the prophet at the time was saying — yes, how did she reconcile that?
And are there things the prophet is saying now that we should probably just disregard, particularly if we feel so prompted by the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost?
I’m pretty tired of all the pandering to President Nelson. And you’re right that it’s difficult to reconcile her repeated refrain to obey the prophet with her own decisions earlier in her life that clearly went against prophetic counsel. I think your last question is a good one. I suspect the answer is yes.
He is a polygamist, so we can feel free to disregard everything that he says. He’s proven to us that he is not a good leader for women.
This is one of many things that bothered me about her address. I have to admit (though we will obviously never know) that to me it felt like she had written the middle section on her own and then the Board of Directors at BYU looked it over and gave her some counsel on how to buffer or frame her otherwise liberating message for women. I say that because the first part of the talk is so heavy on idolizing President Nelson – even to the point of saying she begins every day reading a talk by him? Really? And then the last part of the talk feels to me like a doubling down on the primacy of motherhood above all else even though the middle of her talk seemed to be focused on how she had experienced the “joyful juggle” of both motherhood and a career. This talk left me feeling like I often feel listening to general messages from general church leaders in recent years: confused. Which is it? You can’t have your cake and eat it too by saying things that appeal to the more open minded and progressive members while simultaneously doubling down on regressive orthodoxy. Pick a lane. Which message are we supposed to get from this talk? Follow the prophet no matter what which means making motherhood the sole purpose of your existence or let God prevail and follow your own personal revelation which might also include following other personal dreams?
💯. How did she do it? Well never know because of the follow the prophet but don’t flip flop.
Thanks. This was amazing insight. The instant I read President Johnson’s talk – I felt uncomfortable. My life and career was very similar to hers. I joined the Church when I was 19 in Texas and enrolled at BYU. My mom was worried about me joining what she viewed as an “patriarchal” church so she told me she would pay for my college f I didn’t get married and pay for my law school if I didn’t get pregnant. Haha. When I got to Provo, I immediately felt like I had landed on a foreign planet and quickly transferred to Utah. I graduated in 1988, got married and went to Law School at BYU. My class was 25% female and I had some male classmates ask me why I was there – taking the place of a guy. I interviewed with numerous law firms – one of which was Kirton McConkie. At that time it was called “the only true law firm.” During my interview I was asked if I planned on having children and how I could reconcile being an LDS working woman and wanting children. Needless to say I did not go to work for them. I worked in private practice for 5 years, in house with a corporation for 5 years and with the SEC for two years. (1991-2003). I had three kids during that time and the struggle was real. I had an amazing and supportive husband but realized after my third child that I could not do it all. Childcare was impossible, my older kids were getting busy and I was pulled in a million directions. After serious heart and gut wrenching prayers – I made the decision to leave it all behind and stay home. My first day home was SO hard. Luckily I was surrounded by beautiful family and neighbors who helped me make the transition. I am so grateful I was able to make that choice and stay home – a lot of women can’t. But sometimes my heart still hurts wondering “what could have been”. I don’t regret my choice and “sacrifice” – but when President Johnson made it sound so easy – it stung. It was not easy. It is not easy. My testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ is stronger than it has ever been – but I have to continually tell myself that although the Gospel is perfect – the Church is not perfect, the people are not perfect and the past, present and future have not are not and will not be perfect. My heart goes out to all women.
“It was not easy. It is not easy.” Yes. None of this would have been easy. Like you, I would have loved to see more of that acknowledged in the talk. I’m glad you found a way to pursue your career earlier in your life. You’ve seen both sides of the fence, and I think that gives you great perspective.
My teen years were spent hearing those talks and having my parents discourage my education because of them. I remember many times asking why the sisters in the general presidencies almost always had both a career AND children when it was clearly preached that this was an abomination and destruction of the family. I was not allowed to have both, but THEY could. Camille’s talk took me right back to that place.
And now here I am 40 some years later with no education or way to support myself, children gone, husband indifferent to me, and I have no options of having my own life. Totally stuck. Because I was taught wanting/persuing options and education was literally satanic. Who taught Camille she could ignore the brethren back then? Would she dare ignore them now?
You bet I’m bitter. I have a wasted life, good for only making meals and doing laundry and cleaning toilets until I die. Those talks created an atmosphere that robbed me of finding out my potential.
Oh, NH, your comment is devastating. It’s gut-wrenching to read. I’m so sorry.
I often think about the hierarchy of needs. Was it Maslow that said “potential is need”? I think about the mental, physical, emotional needs of women laid on the alter of a system that doesn’t make room for us to be whole human beings and the harm that does to everyone. Yes, housework and carework are sacred and valuable and also the souls of women are sacred and valuable. The thing that breaks my heart is all of the older women saying that they now feel obsolete because they followed the prophetic counsel that didn’t value them beyond their capacity for being a cog in the system. May we grieve with them.
Absolutely. I feel the tragedy of these women’s regret and the tragedy of a system that thought it was a good idea to universalize these gender roles. If individual women want to stay at home and that works for the family, well and good. But for a generation of Mormon women to be told to do so, and told that not heeding those injunctions would bring families to ruin, is so unfair. What a heavy weight these women have borne.
I was one of 2 LDS adult women I knew in my adult ward that went against the counsel to stay at home. I’ve worked for the entirety of my marriage and family rearing life and, in doing so, have always been a bit of a pariah. Even from people with the best of intentions. “I don’t know how you do it” or “what do you do with your kids?” have been my FAQ headliners, the judgement not that well-hidden. I know I was never considered for any high callings because everyone said “oh I know you’re too busy”. To be clear I NEVER wanted those callings- not for one minute of one hour of one day. But I know I was never really considered, because of my working. Apparently it made me less “faithful”? (And how do you compare that with men being given callings? It’s laughable.)
I’m grateful to have made it through the years of raising small children, and while my kids are a little older now and I’m definitely a lot wiser, I want to wrap my arms around my younger self who almost daily felt inferior as a mother, selfishly unrighteous, and that maybe she was wrong to pursue lifelong passions in the workplace. I weep for her, but I’m also really proud of her. And I wish that no woman ever has to struggle with herself or her church community in the same way—that she is free in every way to choose what she wants to be and how she wants to structure her life.
Your last line is beautiful. Amen. And how sad that you’ve felt so much judgement from ward members who should have been your biggest cheerleaders and supporters. Our communities need to do so much better.
I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s and that culture of staying home and not pursuing a career were very strong. It still feels pretty strong. I thought I had to choose either marriage and children or a career. In my young mind it was obvious to me that I wanted a career. And I felt guilt about it and didn’t tell anyone my desires. Going to school at BYU in the late 90’s was hard! I even had a professor say “why am I even teaching all you women you’re just going to be stay at home mothers?” that cut right through me and hurt on such a deep level. We were definitely not considered equals with the men in our class. But I persisted and got a degree and went on a mission, and got married. In a way I felt I had chosen marriage and family (even though I worked) over my career and it left me depressed. After having such a struggle to conceive the two children I had and losing my third child I was so vulnerable and felt the “righteous” desires for motherhood had left me heartbroken. I felt compelled by God that I needed to persue my career. It has been so difficult juggling the kids and work but it is also so so rewarding and I couldn’t have done it without a supportive husband. I love my career! I love my family! I find fulfillment in both but nobody told or showed me the way. God showed me the way and I’m grateful I listened. We need more examples of women following their own personal divine guidance. I too would like to know how the childcare situation looked like for Camille and her family:)
I read that she had a full-time nanny
I’m so glad you’ve been able to follow your desires and do both! Even without good models around you. Hopefully the next generation of girls will see more models of women doing both and thriving.
Shortly after the printed version of Benson’s letter came out, I received it, anonymously, in the mail with a hand-written note, on lined notebook paper, “You are not following the prophet. You and your family will not be in the Lord’s favor.” Mind you, I was working 2-3 mornings a week at a local floral and teaching water aerobics 3 early mornings a week. One child was in preschool, the other spending her mornings in the home of a loving woman and her children. I had to do something besides be a parent! And this was meager time, but according to the letter, a sin no less.
Well, we moved away from the family member who wrote this letter (my ex’s brother), I went to school (13 years from no credits to MA), taught at a college for 18 years, divorced and remarried, and I am newly retired as a hospital chaplain. This weekend my daughter thanked me for my example (she is working p/t and has a BA and two children – hurray for her).
However, this letter definitely was the beginning of my “never trust church authority” phase that hasn’t ended yet. How disappointing to have such a mixed message sent by a woman to women.
PS – this same BIL told me my divorce was directly related to me disregarding his and the prophet’s advice, getting an education and working. Sheesh –
Oh my gosh, Ronda, that is awful. I can’t believe a family member would send that to you. Outrageous. Like it was any of his business. I love that you’ve carved out such a meaningful career for yourself!
Between the new garment question and new statement read at recommend interviews that completely deleted seeking out the Holy Ghost on when to wear them (and telling us uncategorically to PUT THEM RIGHT BACK ON AT ALL TIMES), Sis. Dennis’ talk telling us we have priesthood authority when we have zero true leadership/voice in our wards/stakes (but an 11-year old boy does), and now this gaslighting testimony of Sis. Johnson’s decision to directly defy the prophet during her time (and then her strange doubling down on the ‘have lots of babies the world is in trouble’ when she only had three), I’m just about done. Beyond discouraged.
I returned to work full time 3+ years ago and am now an empty nester, and my husband has lost his job. Again. Meanwhile I am more fulfilled and well-rounded by working than I ever was as a full time mom. My children are so proud to see me working and growing, but I am behind on who I could have been and the security I could have provided my family in partnership with my husband. I missed out on 20+ years of giving them the example of my own growth and personal fulfillment because of the Mothers In Zion talk (given when I was in YW), and then the Family Proclamation, and allllll the ‘doctrine’ over the pulpit from Salt Lake to the Relief Society halls about ‘stay home with your kids, that’s the holier way!’. I’m so angry and hurt and betrayed that those who didn’t listen to the prophet at that time actaully fared better than many many women who stayed home. That talk and that blanket application of how to be a mother is as stupid as telling every man the only way they can contribute to their family is if they are accountants. Only accountants. Sounds ridiculous, right? Same way to dare to tell women their motherhood must look this one way.
One weird and slightly redeeming question, though- is this some subversive way of Sis. Johnson to try and get this tide to truly, truly turn about women’s choices and freedoms? Did she always disagree with this ‘doctrine’ and was finally able to slip this on by the editing committee (not being given in conference, so perhaps her editors were fewer than normal?) at this BYU conference??? I can’t figure out if she is for us or against us, as the gaslighting is so thick.
I’m exhausted and tired with living with this betrayal. I know this stuff, this micromanaging of women’s life, is not Christ’s way. I feel lost.
My guess is that Pres. Johnson really does want women to feel like they can choose both career and motherhood, but that such a message had to be couched in “have lots of babies” and “motherhood is the most important thing ever” rhetoric in order to make the first message palatable to church leaders. That emphasis on early motherhood, even if women don’t feel ready, did feel discordant to me. I’m sorry you missed out on 20 years of more financial security and fulfillment because of that 1987 talk. There is so much regret and pain out there because of it.
Every avenue I showed interest in pursuing as a teenager in the 80s was met with the same response by both my parents and church leaders: “You can’t do that when you’re a wife and mother.” And, at the time, because I was indoctrinated never to think for myself, but to blindly follow, I became a mother and nothing else. And while I love my children, it was largely an unfulfilling task to raise them and have nothing for myself. It’s terrifying to be as old as I am and completely helpless to support myself. Becoming homeless is a real possibility for me.
I raised my children much differently. That indoctrination stopped with me.
It’s such a shame you got those messages from both family and church leaders. Yes, it’s a sad reality that women who have not developed a career are in a perilously vulnerable position should their marriages fail. And we know that about half of all those marriages will. What a gamble those old church leaders played with women’s lives.
This is so interesting to read this perspective I’m Pre. Johnson’s message as I listened to it yesterday and have some conflicting feelings on it. I appreciate learning from other commenters’ thoughts and experiences. I recently divorced an abusive husband, with whom I do not share children, and I can’t imagine not building a career prior to marriage or not continuing to do so in the future as I hope to one day remarry and have children. I wish church leaders would not say such thoughtless things when it comes to women’s contributions in their communities through working in meaningful employment (and possibly supporting other women in that process), and that there wasn’t still a double standard for women and men when it comes to financial stability and employment outside the family unit or home. Its freaking almost 2025. Makes it hard to want to stay in the church when women’s work outside the home is still diminished and downplayed to our collective detriment.
You are ahead of so many of us if you’re determined to keep working when you have children. And you’re so right about that double standard.
Thanks, Caroline! Unfortunately its a double edged opportunity – student loan debt won’t pay itself, nor do I expect a future spouse to pay that if I were to insist on not working…I think it is interesting though as I grew up in a home where my Mom always had to work, so I guess that is the expectation. Though I do have the same sentiment as others – aiming lower , so to speak, in terms of career options was definitely made the norm culturally at church – too often in young women lessons it was taught as if working for an income (aside from the intense emotional and physical labor of having and raising humans!) outside the family was only something to ‘fall’ back on if needed. I do hope the next generation of young women can help us figure out how to better teach the generations after them how to approach working and family life on more equal footing. Everyone has a mission to fulfill, and for so many people that includes being in relationship with children in our families while also pursuing meaningful full work as a fully developed adult. I wish so many of my grandparents’ generation would have had better opportunities to pursue developing themselves first outside of their family responsibilities since husbands and fathers are expected to do the same.
Reading your comments reminded me of a time, about 20 years ago, that I asked my first graders to write about what they’d like to do when they grew up. Of course, they are too young to know for sure, but they love to share. One of my brightest kids came to me in tears. She explained that she wanted to be a “baby” doctor, but said that Jesus wants her to be a mom. She was 7 and already feeling the pain of trying to manage the expectations and limitations of her religion.
Ohhh that makes me so sad! Was she raised Mormon?
7 years old! And she was already getting that message. Oof.
Thanks for the article. I see Pres. Benson’s talk as counsel, not doctrine. We are often given counsel, and counsel I think should be considered but is not necessarily right for everyone. Counsel has proven to change and/or be wrong and influenced by culture. I can think of several examples. Anyway…sad how this affected so many women and glad to see this shift also. I saw that Elder Oaks commented on the church fb page on her post, applauding her for her example. I have to remind myself that this is a “living” church…meaning it’s learning and changing and growing too.
I think you’re right that it was counsel — but unfortunately, it wasn’t couched that way. It would have been so much better if these statements about the evils of mother working were qualified with, “This is my opinion.” or “In my experience, this works best.” and “But you must follow your own inspiration on this deeply personal matter.” Those phrases would have made a world of different to so many women.
I think this is a healthy, balanced approach to leaders’ counsel is to take it just as that: counsel!
Woulda been nice if the Benson talk was presented as counsel, but it wasn’t. It was reprinted and distributed to all the women in the church, for girls to carry around in their scriptures and study. And that’s before we even get to the content of the talk, which gave points of “women should be in the home and do this” with the threat of “if you work outside the home, you’ll destroy your family and go to hell.” Not exactly open to personal revelation and application.
I am so tired of the endless comments on the Church posts and in other conversations that blame the women who followed the counsel for the difficult circumstances that resulted – they just didn’t get it. Oh, we got it, all right. And let’s just pretend that there aren’t talks NOW that say the Church is interchangeable with Jesus Himself, and if your personal revelation is opposite something The Prophet says you’re wrong and following Satan.
Oaks kind of backhandedly complimented her, overlooking everything except her mom duties. I don’t think he really acknowledged her work contributions.
I love this. If only women could be more candid and authentic with us about their experience. I think it’s fantastic that she went to law school and worked and had children and was married. But she left out a large part of that story. How did she wrestle with the guilt, how did she juggle that her husband, what did she do for daycare. As someone who grew up in Silicon Valley the Bay Area and still lives here I am married and have 3 children and I work. I was home for a few years full time but decided to go back to work. I had men telling me I shouldn’t work and I should enjoy motherhood more. Meanwhile where I live it’s so extremely expensive to survive here. Most can’t even buy a home on one income yet we are told it’s possible. It’s such a lie. I have my children in daycare and while it’s expensive it’s temporary since all of my kids will be in school soon. It takes a village to raise a family and I’m glad I didn’t let men tell me what I should do. I personally have stopped attending church and I feel so relieved and happier. I’m exploring other Christian churches that don’t have so much shame and fear. I’m tired and the last thing I need to hear is that I’m not doing enough. I want to feel uplifted and encouraged when I go to church and attending the Mormon church just wasn’t doing it for me anymore. I found attending made me angry because I heard so many messages that were sexist, unchristian, homophobic and on and on. I needed to fill my own cup. I’ve realized how difficult it is to fully self actualize and stay in the Mormon church. My sister left over 12 years ago so she’s paved the way. Meanwhile my husband and children still remain but I know that if I’m happier not attending I’ll be a better wife and mother. Ultimately everyone has to do what’s best for them. I don’t judge people who stay or go. Life is a journey and I don’t ask for anyone’s permission to be happy anymore. I hope you don’t either. Life is too short.
“It takes a village to raise a family and I’m glad I didn’t let men tell me what I should do.” So right. There’s nothing wrong with good daycare and other loving adults in our kids’ lives. I hope you find a church that feels good to you!
A good daycare can enhance social development, for sure. One of the hardest things about daycare for me were the constant illnesses. My daughter and I were sick almost the entire time she was in daycare. It was fun to work, but it was very stressful juggling illnesses. After three months of daycare, my company closed their factory, so I decided to stay home. Interestingly, that daughter hardly gets sick now, unlike my other kids.
Thank you for sharing this. Really resonates with some of my experiences..wishing you peace and hope on your own unique path forward. You know what is best for you and kudos to you for having courage to follow your heart. So much good is to be found in other churches as well, and it is so great that you have options to pursue where you feel safe and supported along your journey.💖💖
I too was one that had my babies in the 80s and 90s despite being an ambitious Type A personality. I remember well sitting in the first day of the college class of my career of choice and feeling deflated as the professor laid out the commitment the career would require. I ended up changing majors the next semester into a secretarial track that would allow me to quickly get a job that would have maternity insurance. I was at that job exactly nine months.
What followed was a painfully strong desire to make something of myself and contribute to the household income that I could never quench. I loved my children and even loved being a sahm. But it never was enough to feel fulfilled.
Which leads me to a topic I’m embarrassed to mention but I think is relevant here. We all know that Utah is the king of multi level marketing. I know that I was prime prey for the scheme. Then there’s the Mormon Mommy Blogs. Another attempt to contribute and do something important while following the prophet. Years and years of frustration and effort with no return but plenty of expense, which led to guilt and feelings of failure.
I always thought I’d start a career once I was an empty nester but now I’m disabled and unable to work, plus I don’t qualify for SS. So I’m stuck in a marriage that keeps me small with no path out.
I’m happy if the new generation is getting a different message than we did. However I suspect that will get ripped out from under them at some point, just like the garment messaging.
Thank you for bringing our stories to light. Our daughters deserve better.
Oh, this was so hard to read. So many women did the same as you did and now are in similar painful boats. And there’s a reason multi-level marketing is so huge in Utah with women. It holds the promise of making women some money while also being very mom-friendly given it’s flexibility. But so very few women ever make any meaningful money in it. How much better off would they be if they had invested that time and effort into a career.
Exactly. It angers me to no end. What could have been a prosperous and enriching life turned into one filled with disappointment and embarrassing failures, all because some old dudes decided they needed to keep women in their place.
The happiest women I know who remain active in the church are a mother and daughter who live on the same street. Both had several children. The mother always worked during her marriage (with husband’s backing – his mother was widowed early). First she worked service jobs at night, and then later after more schooling, in legal work. She also dedicated countless hours to church callings, usually complex events that required her keen mind. The ambitious daughter obtained a masters degree and went on to have several children. She has also pursued professional interests, while her husband works full-time. He’s also very involved with the kids. They can count on her mother and father to step in for childcare when needed. I can’t speak to their thinking. But for the mother, she had a Mormon husband who believed smart women deserved to pursue their ambitions. The daughter has always impressed me as a sharp observer and critical thinker who saw that women should have healthy boundaries, marriages don’t always work out, and who believed in building a strong community for her family inside and outside the church. I can’t speak to how much a prophet’s counsel over the pulpit inspired her thinking.
Both are very forgiving of themselves when it comes to personal faults, whereas I have been much more letter of the law. BYU in the late 1990s did me no favors. I had a professor who told me I had intellectual promise and offered to help me prepare a paper I had written for publication. But I stopped the process after he casually commented that if I wanted to be a scholar I shouldn’t get married. I also remember countless firesides at BYU about marriage that made me feel totally inadequate for failing to find a husband there, and helped me justify to myself bad choices when I did choose to get married. I gave up on a relationship with a non-member who I was truly in love with, fearing if we did anything physical I might get kicked out of BYU. I was an ardent rulekeeper who believed blessings would come and my past sins would be forgiven by strict obedience. I was alternatively mocked by elders on my mission for wanting ‘power’, all while feeling isolated and untouched by another human for a year and a half. I did have some enjoyable experiences — but my overwhelming feeling when I got home was that I was broken. I listened to conference talks from general authorities with ardor, always left feeling inadequate and that I had to try harder.
I was and still remain a believer, but trying so hard to follow the words of the prophet, rather than attending to my broken spirit is eventually what led me to break with the church. It’s not a zero sum game though. So much good came out of the church – largely from people who knew me individually, rather than not at all.
I am outraged your professor said that to you. Why would someone ever say that to a promising student? I guess he was caught up in this false binary of thinking that women can either have a career or marriage/motherhood, but not both. Sending you my best on your healing journey.
Thanks, Caroline. This is my experience also.
Sister Johnson couldn’t quote Russell Nelson enough—obsequious came to mind—yet she disregarded the message President Benson, the living prophet at the time, gave the very year she was married (married July 1987). I wonder when Sister Johnson decided to “Follow the Prophet,” which she is decidedly doing with the current one.
I think she’s falling into the pattern that has been set in recent years. I see many GAs do it too. Lots of references and praise for Pres. Nelson before and during talks. These speakers must be trying to signal to him (and to the audience) that they are trustworthy and in line with the prophet. It’s tiresome for the audience members, that’s for sure.
In 2017 after 20 years of marriage I asked my husband to go to Esthetician School after being home full time with 4 children for 18 years. I had a personal finance degree. He said no , because it was “against the brethren’s counsel”. I persisted and went anyways. It was the first time I opposed him or his patriarchal philosophy. It was the best decision to choose myself, and a year later I had the strength to leave an 21 year abusive marriage.
Wow, Carol, you’re amazing for having the strength to do that. I love when women act as agents and don’t let other dictate their decisions. Hearing you did this just made my day 🙂
Cynically, I have to wonder if that’s one of the reasons men don’t want us working – if we have options, we won’t stay in terrible marriages.
I have been watching this conversation play out about the logistical supports to raise children and go to work full time – and how the necessary balance between “staying home” with the children, “working from home” with children (which was a trend during COVID), working outside the home (and outsourcing the care of children to family), working outside the home (and outsourcing the care of children to daycare centers).
The thing that hurts the most is wasn’t isn’t said (and might be something I am internalizing) – Brother Johnson provided enough support of the right type that they were able to balance marriage, children, and 2 careers. And I believe that Sister Johnson is being honest – he is a general authority as well I believe.
But it becomes harder to hear the message that “both is possible – look at me” when looking at Sister Johnson’s situation is comparing apples to oranges – some of us didn’t choose a spouse who can be “in relation to us” as a partner as well as Brother Johnson was to Sister Johnson. While I suspect that we all think we “married that” and we are aware that “divorce is on the table” heck, “disability” is a known deal of mortality mentioned in “The Proclamation to the Family” after all – that doesn’t take the sting out of the “if you had chosen your partner differently – look what you could have had” messaging.
That’s a good point. She definitely must have had some remarkable support from her husband –moral support, mostly, I’m imagining, as opposed to child care support. I understand she had a full-time nanny. That level of child care sure opens up possibilities for careers. But your point is well-taken. If we don’t have husbands who can even offer moral support in our career aspirations, we’re kind of dead in the water. Her situation was exceptional.
I thought exactly the same thing when I read her bio at the time of her calling. It’s ironic that the women who listened to their own voice instead of the voice of the prophet at the time are the ones called into leadership now. Because, of course she developed the right skills to serve in her calling as a result. I applaud her decisions, but it is really confusing to me that I felt like the only righteous decision to be made was to stay home. I might have made all the same decisions and stayed home when my kids were young, but it would have been nice to feel like that had been my choice. It’s so interesting that we all hear and process information so differently.
Yeah, there’s a real irony that our top woman in the church is a woman who clearly sluffed off prophetic counsel about working mothers. Good for her. But it stinks for all the women who were obedient and now have regrets.
I am one of those women. Smart and talented but set on the mommy track (mid nineties BYU marriage) and spent two decades home with kids. Now divorced with an entry level job, I could not support myself to any reasonable standard. I am entirely dependent on my ex for income and family support.
You’re scenario is a nightmare one. It’s one I fear most when I see women choosing SAHMhood. If SAHMhood works out, well and good. But so often it doesnt. And then women who have been home with kids are financially vulnerable. Even if they get back in the market, as you have done, they are two decades behind male peers of their same age. They will never catch up in terms of salary or retirement savings.
Caroline,
Thank you for your article and perspective on the IG Post, and I appreciate your following up with those who have commented.
As a woman who has not been married, I am grateful that I have pursued my education and have continued to do so. I know I am where I am today with my career and education.
Unlike many other women who decided to get married and have children, I was not so fortunate in that area of my life. Still, I have many friends who have who are the ones who have decided to ‘stay home’ and mind the flock of children who now are a decade or more into raising children and who are wondering what is next for them or what life looks like after raising children, divorce empty nesting, etc. Some have returned to school or tried to get a job, etc. I even have one friend who is now a widow raising young children. She was one of the fortunate girls who received a university education and could work in the field so that she would be able to provide for her children. I have also seen the hardship that dear friends now face because they didn’t take the opportunity or have the opportunity when they were early married to seek an education.
One thing that I have come to understand is that even with what past prophets have said and their previous council, we, as members of the church, both men & women, have been instructed to find out for ourselves if the revelation or calling, etc., is accurate or even what works best for your family, etc. I have seen both sides of the issue where women who have no formal education and have sacrificed to stay at home due to unforeseen circumstances are now looking for work or going back to school, etc.
It is disheartening to feel the way many of these women have felt and now feel regrets, anger, and sadness toward our church leaders. I will never regret the principle of self-reliance for a second. We have been given this life to make choices, and sometimes, they are not the best choices, and sometimes, they lead us down paths that weren’t our plan A. However, no one should ever feel diminished for them. No matter what the circumstances may be, we all can make decisions for what is personally best for themselves and their families. Education in all forms is the only thing we can take with us, so nothing should stop us from pursuing all forms of education. This goes for careers as well. We all have been given the ability to choose.
Brother and Sister Johnson both chose to help provide for their family. Could those choices allow for ‘perks’ such as a nanny or housekeeper, etc.? They could have; it’s possible, but I’m sure that they also, at times, did all their childcare and housekeeping. It all comes down to planning, budgeting, and having the proper fiscal sense.
When I get married one day and have a family (which may look completely different than any other family I know), I will be grateful that we have been given counsel from our leaders that we can confirm for ourselves the best course of action for my family. I have studied The Family Proclamation and many other church talks and resources. I know that there is a council within that contains truths that will provide answers that will help in both the leanest and wealthiest circumstances.
I also consider this thought when stay-at-home mothers don’t know or feel they have accomplished anything with their kids. Having the chance to raise children into adulthood is a pretty fantastic job. Seeing them develop and change and grow while doing the daily, mundane tasks every day and managing schedules, etc. It’s not an easy job, and returning to the workforce with these skills earned and learned in motherhood is valuable and should make the opportunities easier to get work when needed. They also provide help with education as well. Sometimes, you have to go into debt for an education, but the things you learn through staying home and then pursuing an education will pay off in dividends.
Anyway, that was longer than I thought. I see a different side of the issue, another entire perspective.
I appreciate your perspective. I think you’re right that we have been told to pray and seek confirmation for advice/injunctions given from the pulpit. (And I agree that that is exactly what we should do.) But I think it’s also true that there’s another discourse very present in Mormonism that emphasizes obedience to leaders. Think of the Primary song “Follow the Prophet” — there are no qualifiers in there, no suggestions to pray first before acting on prophetic injunctions. So it doesn’t suprise me that so many women heard those very clear instructions in the 70s and 80s to quit jobs/don’t take up jobs and felt they had no choice but to obey. It’s really tragic. But it sounds to me like you’ve got a really healthy perspective. I think we’d all be so much happier in Mormonism if we did more of that personal searching/understanding/confirmation seeking and gave ourselves permission to go our own paths, being guided by our best selves and principles.
I was an undergrad at BYU when the Benson talk came out. I had a very wise Stake President who got up and said: “Its a personal decision between a married couple. My wife works.” And that was pretty much the end of it. I also felt I simply had no choice – I didn’t have and don’t have a husband. I just ignored him, his words didn’t apply to me. As a single, childless woman in this Church I pretty much have to do that all the time.
Good for him! And yes. In a church that’s so focused on the nuclear family, single people have to reinterpret/ignore/nuance so much.
After 20 years as a stay at home mom, which I loved doing, my husband lost his job (again) and I went back into the work force. I was lucky. I already had an MA and up-to-date licensure in my field. I got a job in my profession, a job I still have. When I returned to work 12 years ago, my youngest daughter was a freshman in high school. But here’s what makes me angry. I spent YEARS feeling guilty that I was working. Despite the necessity. Despite being, for a time, the sole source of our family income. I couldn’t shake off the feeling that I wasn’t supposed to be doing this. Thanks to time and my daughters’ encouragement, I slowly moved past that point. But the preaching that I heard caused me a lot of unnecessary pain. And that is just wrong.
You saved your family. It’s tragic that you felt guilt for doing that. Those statements about working mothers from church leaders have long insidious tentacles. How I hope that we can all turn a page, as you have.
I often wonder about the invisible women who make these other “successful” women’s lives possible. Nannies, extended family (grandparents, etc) who help fill in the gaps. It’s impossible (in my opinion) to do it alone. And if you’ve had to do it alone you know how very real that struggle is.
Yes. It would not have been a “joyful juggle” if Pres. Johnson had not had significant (full-time nanny, apparently) help.
I will say that not only has that rhetoric of the past been damaging to women, but it has been damaging to men and families, too. Despite not finding it desirable, men have borne the burden of being the sole breadwinner, and this has created a lack of real partnership, along with resentment towards their wives (who themselves didn’t necessarily want to impose that burden on their husbands, but felt they were “choosing the right.”)
Excellent point. Placing the entire burden of breadwinning on men is not only stress-inducing and difficult for many men, it also harms families’ bottom lines and retirements. I can definitely see how this strict bifurcation of gender roles could lead to resentment from men (as well as women).
My husband and I have talked about this at length. He became an incredibly busy surgeon and I stayed home based on the counsel and expectation of the time (married while at BYU in 1995 -the year of the Family Proclamation). Not only could he have benefitted from a less demanding career that allowed him to be home with his children more, but I absolutely would have benefitted from furthering my education and working outside the home. As an ambitious extrovert who is constantly chewing on big ideas and concepts, staying home 24/7 with small children while being overwhelmed by mundane physical tasks was horrible for my mental health. To imagine going back and feeling empowered enough to choose a life where we both had less demanding but fulfilling careers while co-parenting is painful for both of us.
I’m finishing my master’s degree right now, and my husband is looking forward to not having the burden of breadwinning solely on his shoulders. He has been supportive throughout my years as a SAHM of small children, a decade of school volunteering, and 5 years of continuing education. Maybe women and men just need to feel free to make their own decisions, both individually, and as a family unit.
I am so glad Camille Johnson felt like she had a choice. Maybe because the counsel was so new it helped. I am glad in the face of a huge choice she made the one best for her. There is not doubt in my mind it was a correct choice for her and her family.
As usual the comments on the thread made me so upset. I kept reading things like “it was just counsel and we should always do what is best for us even if the prophet says differently.”
That is not what I was taught. So I looked up articles in agency and the first ish one I saw was one from when I first entered college and some of the words have been burned in my mind but I had forgotten who said them. I copy and pasted below. The talk is Eyring 1997.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1997/04/finding-safety-in-counsel?lang=eng
“In our own time, we have been warned with counsel of where to find safety from sin and from sorrow. One of the keys to recognizing those warnings is that they are repeated. For instance, more than once in these general conferences, you have heard our prophet say that he would quote a preceding prophet and would therefore be a second witness and sometimes even a third. Each of us who has listened has heard President Kimball give counsel on the importance of a mother in the home and then heard President Benson quote him, and we have heard President Hinckley quote them both“
And in the next paragraph
“ Looking for the path to safety in the counsel of prophets makes sense to those with strong faith. When a prophet speaks, those with little faith may think that they hear only a wise man giving good advice. Then if his counsel seems comfortable and reasonable, squaring with what they want to do, they take it. If it does not, they consider it either faulty advice or they see their circumstances as justifying their being an exception to the counsel. Those without faith may think that they hear only men seeking to exert influence for some selfish motive.”
I was taught that only a woman of lesser faith would disobey a prophets counsel. It was there and so wholly ingrained in my dna and that despite having a desperate urge to develop a career- I did not.
It is despicable that I was taught to forgo my voice for someone else’s.
The primary takeaway for me from Sis Johnson’s story is never ever rise another voice above my own in matters that only pertain to me.
She just became the poster child for following your own autonomy and personal revelation… even if it goes against the counsel of the brethren.
Also, I wish we had insight into a fuller narrative. Like, was there house keeping, Nanny, tutors, cook, landscaping, hired help etc… Although I applaud her courage to be true to herself…there’s a lot of privilege there because of that income bracket of a dual income. That so many others sacrificed to barley make ends meet… because we followed the brethren.
Based on the account of someone who knew their family growing up, she had a full-time nanny and extended family support: https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/1cjzygc/comment/l2jxnmy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I also have full-time paid help. It makes a world of difference and I count it as the critical piece of my ability to pursue a career (as does my husband). I have worked without having full-time help and that was very exhausting. But I wouldn’t say it’s a struggle or really even a juggle now. Sometimes people ask some variation of the question: “How do you do it all?” (the question is always directed at me, never my husband). I always tell them it’s pretty simple: We pay someone to manage our household.
And that talk was in 1997, ten years after the Benson talk! How did she feel empowered to do what she did, and how did she and her husband rise in the ranks of the church while clearly “disobeying” the voice of the prophet on full time stay-at-home motherhood? The double standard is maddening!
It is maddening but I am so glad she did. It gives others permission to follow their promptings even if they go against counsel.
I realized not all prophetic counsel is for me many years ago after life really started happening and I understood my own self better and how god speaks to me. maybe someone will find their own voice sooner or recognize promptings quicker because they have permission to go against the grain. I don’t want more people to be in the dark searching for meaning for decades when the answer is in them already.
Hi. Male here. Mid-50s. Married. Wife stayed home with our six kids. Made money. Not too much not too little. Would not have changed a thing. All this talk about a career. Whatever. Spent my life making someone else rich. I helped some people along the way. Happy about that. Most of my effort – my most important work, and that of my wife, was to giving our kids a good start. Wouldn’t trade that for anything. She’s now day trading. She’s very good. In 2 – 3 hours a day, she makes more than I do. She has the freedom to pursue what she wants (always has). She lived a wonderful life as a mother. She’ll have a wonderful life serving other people now and continuing to develop her talents.
So sorry to see the comments of women expressing regret for focusing on their families. Unfortunate. I wonder about their kids. Are they sorry that their mothers focused on providing a good home? Maybe. I grew up in a single-parent home. Would have loved to have had someone home when I got home from school. Would have loved a mom who could have focused on building a home.
Warning: micro-aggression coming – Oh wait, maybe I already did in that last paragraph.
It seems Ms. Johnson outsourced her mothering to a nanny. That’s her choice. But, if she had the means to do that, let’s not pretend she can talk to anyone but a small group of LDS elite about translating her experience as a working “mother” to what other people experience.
During a handful of times in my career, I worked with new mothers on their first day back after maternity leave. Oh, the tears. But, so helpful were the “comforting” words from the other women, “Don’t worry, it’ll get easier.” Of course, I’d have been reprimanded had I said, “There’s a reason why you’re feeling this way. Rather than dismiss your feelings, you should reflect on your priorities.” Can’t have valuable people leave the workplace and stop making someone else money…
But, this brings up a good opportunity to reflect on our “leaders”, what they tell us, what they don’t tell us (appreciate the post author for the thoughtful comments), and the lives they live (rules for thee but not for me). Yes, let’s take some time and reflect on Ms. Johnson and her experience. She made a lot of money – a lot of money. Therefore, she’s successful and someone we should admire and respect – why else do you think she was promoted to her current position? Maybe she’s recommending a change of course for LDS-believing mothers. After all, if more mothers are working, that’s more tithing revenue. More tithing revenue means more church investments and a larger investment portfolio. Yes, let’s get out there and make more money.
We’ll soon have another opportunity for reflection on prophetic counsel as the bodies continue to pile up from the recent safe and effective commandment we were given…
I graduated from BYU in 1978 with a BS in a healthcare field ( not nursing). I never intended to use it but then my husband was a teacher and interest rates were even higher than they are now( first home in 1983 was13.5%) . There was no way we could have a large family and pay tithing on his income alone. (As far as renting instead of buying, most rents were insignificantly lower than my mortgage payment). And yet rather than me work leaders counseled us that it was preferable for my husband to take a second job, that would pay less than mine, and be away from home more. That told me they were more concerned with keeping women in their “place” than anything else. Now that I’m retired and have my own pension and 401K’s I thank the FSM I did not heed their incredibly stupid advice.
I am also one of them. I so appreciate your eloquently written words on this subject! Now in my 40s, I see how ill equipped I am to contributing (what I see myself) as a very capable human being. I’ve spent 2 decades of my life supporting my husband and our 6 children according to the words of the prophets, and my elders. I listened. Where does that leave me? I see that my sister who has finally divorced her husband after over 20 years of a painful marriage is desperately trying to juggle school and work. She listened and did exactly what the church counseled. The vulnerability and desperate positions us women are in now are a direct consequence of the faithfulness of our youth! It’s a direct spit in the face to be now told that we had the uninfluenced freedom to choose. NOT SO!
Thank you Caroline for so eloquently expressing what so many of us are feeling. I am also one of those severely impacted by Benson’s infamous talk, and sister Johnson’s comments stung. I married in 1988, and although I always worked (but parttime for 20 years), I always felt guilty about even that. After 20 years of dead end mostly parttime jobs, I finally went to University and got the degree I had always wanted. I finished at 51. But guess what? The work force is not clamoring for 50-somethings, even in a country where 86% of women work. I work full time now, but not in the field I had hoped to. Now I am just hanging on until retirement. Being a woman and mother in the church in a country that actively discouraged staying at home, and actually has pretty good child care alternatives, I felt I was constantly walking a tight rope. On one hand, I was resentful of the fact that I had sacrificed my education and career to ‘follow the prophet’, and at the same time felt like I had to defend my choice (and the church) to society around me. It has been a lose, lose situation. I do not earn nearly enough to support myself should my marriage ever fail. Even with a supportive husband who picked up a lot of the slack when I worked and went to school, it was HARD.
This talk spoke directly to something I’ve been struggling with lately. In it, Pres. Johnson first highlights Eve and her righteous, knowledgeable courage – something I’ve been shown/taught hundreds of times in the temple. But…Eve’s courageous choice was literally to break a direct commandment from God. And now, Pres Johnson is telling us how she also directly went against the command of the prophet. She pointed out that it would have been easier to wait to have children, but “let God prevail” and had them while she was pursuing a career. Did she ever even consider giving up the career?!? As the prophet very strongly demanded?
My struggle is that there are things right now that I’m having a hard time with, (garments but also mother in heaven and the total lack of understanding of where I fit in to the eternal, celestial narrative) and I fully believe some of these things (garments) will change in the coming years. So, do I follow the example of Eve and Pres Johnson, and choose the way I feel is right for me? Or do I continue to suffer for ten or twenty more years – the last years of my life – only to have the practice change when it’s too late for me to feel any peace? All the while, constantly being told that pure obedience is the only thing that will save me from my unworthy natural self… when our leaders and even mother Eve were totally un-obedient. My brain – and worse, my soul – hurts.
Garments are simply symbolic of the covenants we make in the temple; they aren’t the covenant themselves. I believe that it follows the Divine plan of agency to exercise bodily autonomy, and that nobody but the individual can make the choice how to wear the Garment. Just as President Johnson exercised her individual agency to make a choice, you have the right to make your own choices without guilt or shame.
This is also a reason why I stopped wearing garments. I realized with all the changes over the years to policy, doctrine, even garments themselves, that church leaders could one day say decide for yourself if and how you wear them. Why continue suffering in wearing them? Why give authority to someone else to dictate what I wear?
I live in an area of the world with lots of women who wear burkas. I often think how members of my own church would look at these women and call them oppressed for not even being able to show their hair in public. But do we not do the same thing to women? Heaven forbid a woman should show too much shoulder.
I was so fortunate to have been raised by a mother who learned (during her degree from BYU in child development in the 70s!) that children tended to struggle when a mother wanted to stay home but had to work OR wanted to work but had to stay home. She held to that view and that really gave me the freedom of conscience to do as I pleased when it came to career decisions! I am so grateful for her example and how she gave me two feet to stand on even when the messaging from the church was different. In any number of aspects!!
I’m so happy that I did listen to President Benson. I stayed home and had a family.
I would never trade all of the precious times and also all of the difficult times for a career.
Those are the pages of my life that I cherish. There are millions of women and their children before his 1987 talk and after who feel the same way I do. I completely understand it when life throws awful things our way. My Dad died when I was 13 yrs old leaving my Mom with 7 children from ages 15 to 1 yr old.
President Benson said many many things in his message. It was nearly 44 min long. We can’t honestly pick out a few sound bites to sum up what he said.
I believe he was speaking the words Heavenly Father inspired him to say. I don’t know anything about President Johnson’s personal life and the reasons for her decisions. The possibilities are numerous. Can any one of us tell the world about our intricate and unique lives? Would anyone understand if we tried? No. Someone would always have something negative to say.
President Ezra Taft Benson’s talk. February 22, 1987:
https://youtu.be/jcjeLC88x1Y?si=Bu59PIefT7AXJ5y2
But did your mom have help financially raising yall? What kind of struggles did you endure? Did your mom struggle with feelings of inadequacy and shame for not being able to stay at home with yall? Real talk I want to know. My maternal grandmother had 7 kids and my grandfather died before my mom was born. I can’t ask my grandmother because she is deceased how she did it all or coped or how she felt. But I can image conflicted would be part of it.
This leaves ash in my mouth and an undeniable rage. I was told growing up in Utah under Hinkley to get an an education, with the caveat that it was “just in case” my husband died or became disabled and so I could educate my own children! Nothing about my own advancement! Even my adopted parents who didn’t grow up LDS said what about “being a mother in zion” exact words when I told them I was going back to school to follow my passions. I too had no choice to stop working after the birth of my first. It took 4 months for me to fully recover from giving birth and childcare was my entire paycheck. My husband hadn’t finished his education because he has a unusual learning disability I didn’t know about before I married him. I gave upon my education and work because of the exspenses of childcare. Ive missed out on building a career because of it with no support from family or the church to make our finances better. The only people whove helped me were non members and a pimo who watched my son while I hunted for work so we could live more comfortably. For Camille to say follow the prophets who have said don’t work stay at home, then say “oh I did it, and so can you!” disregarding the older prophets words is a slap in the face and is disingenuous! My heart aches and feels for all the women like me, who have had opportunities ripped away from them due to culture and this two faced aboutism.
But did your mom have help financially raising yall? What kind of struggles did you endure? Did your mom struggle with feelings of inadequacy and shame for not being able to stay at home with yall? Real talk I want to know. My maternal grandmother had 7 kids and my grandfather died before my mom was born. I can’t ask my grandmother because she is deceased how she did it all or coped or how she felt. But I can image conflicted would be part of it.
Just want to add that when I attended institute between 2012-2016, we were still hearing this rhetoric. The piece of advice I remember most vividly is “Ladies, there are no doctors and lawyers in heaven, but there are mothers!”
We were all in college, so obviously interested in and currently pursuing education, but still subject to the pernicious view that women’s interests/ambitions are only temporary hobbies to be given up when babies come along
Jamie, that is so discouraging. It just shows you how these ideas have long and powerful tentacles, still capable of influencing generations long after the original talk.