By Zenaida
I never, ever thought I would entertain the idea of hooking up with a married man. I had a coworker with whom I connected, and at first it honestly didn’t occur to me think of it as anything other than a platonic relationship. The owner commented on our friendship and gave him a hard time for hanging out with me (at work only, BTW) and from then, I couldn’t help but wonder. Nothing ever came of it, and I am still of the opinion that I would never try to have a relationship (other than friendship) with a married man. But, despite the hair on my neck that raises at the thought: I wonder if it’s even possible.
Being in my mid-twenties I have more and more friends getting married. This changes the dynamic of my relationship with both people. I had plans to climb Mt. Whitney with a (male, married) friend, and another (male, single) friend. It fell through because my “chaperon” backed out. That seems to be a common theme lately. I’ve had a couple of opportunities that have fallen through because it would have been me and married man. I had never given it much thought before. I just accepted the standard of never being alone with a member of the opposite sex, but these were men I was not remotely attracted to, and I wanted only to enjoy the outdoors. Can men truly not help themselves, as the store owner indicated?
I’ve seen the green-eyed monster flare its ugly head, even if very subtly, when I even laugh and joke with a significant other. It feels awkward to enjoy time spent or conversations had with someone else’s spouse. I’ve never been in a situation where I needed to clarify boundaries of a relationship, but I wonder if it might be a good idea. (But, would it even be an effective one?)
I respect the marriage relationship, and I have no desire to breach it, but what happens when I run out of friends because they’re married?
The answer, to me, is to simply make more friends, particularly cultivating friendships with those who have similar outdoor interests. My husband and I, both, together, would go climb Mt. Whitney with you. My sister is there now, climbing with a group of single friends, as I am typing. I am with you, though, with the paranoia among other non-outdoorsey females. I wish more of them understood how little attraction plays into outdoor pursuits. It’s all about the climb, the distance, the view, the ride, etc. When I’m all sweaty and dirty and full of the accomplishment, the last thing on my mind is where to “get it on”, and I find the same to be true for my husband. I think it is a ridiculous generalization to say that men can’t help themselves. Most men I know can. Maybe I just know the good ones!
Interesting questions. I say do what everyone’s comfortable with. If you, the spouse, and the male friend are all ok with the situation, then I say go for it. Be friends. It would be a shame to lose out on a great friendship because of fear of impropriety. Of course, if the wife has problems with it, then you’re out of luck.
I sometimes also wonder what my boundaries should be as a married woman interacting with single or married men.
For the most part, I choose to hang out with female friends. But I think it’s fine for married people to hang out with the opposite sex, so long as there is no romantic interest.
I wonder if we Mormons are too hung up on worries about being around the opposite sex. Sometimes, the justifications for why women can’t be clerks or counselors or whatever in church is because of the danger of an affair. Whatever. We’re adults. We work in the professional world, which is comprised of both sexes. We (most of us) manage to keep our clothes on.
My husband often goes out to lunch with a female colleague. I have no problem with that. That’s what colleagues do.
I’m married. I was telling my husband the other day how hard it is that some of my best friends from college, who were male, I can’t look up and reconnect with like girlfriends. It just feels inappropriate, and I wouldn’t want their wives thinking I’m after them. This predictament feels unjust, but at the same time understandable.
“…the standard of never being alone with a [married?] member of the opposite sex…” This thought has never occurred to me. Weird. As long as the wife is OK with it, what’s the problem?
JohnW. I guess part of the problem is finding out if the wife is really ok with it not. She may say she is o.k. with it when she really isn’t. Or what if your male friend comes back and tells you that he can’t hang out with you because his wife isn’t o.k. with it. Awkward.
if all parties are comfortable, in theory, gender shouldn’t matter.
BUT in reality, people are fallible. Too many opportunities for suspicion, hurt feelings and resentment.
Why even go there? When it’s SO easily avoidable…
Personally, I’d stick to group/family activities to eliminate even the option of a misunderstanding/mistake.
If anything, this has gotten more complicated as a married woman. I guess I just figured that I knew my intentions when I was single, and didn’t think through the possible problems like I do now because it’s something my husband is particularly sensitive about. I have found that there is a wide spectrum of opinion about what is appropriate, and it’s not easy to know when one has crossed a line, because each person’s lines are different. And it’s not always enough to know your own boundaries, imo. I think you are asking good questions, and I think it’s wise to be cautious. It’s just hard to know how cautious to be!
I echo m&m about it being harder after you’re married.
I knew men at Wyview (byu married housing) who wouldn’t hold the door of the laundromat open for women because they were other men’s wives. It was really strange.
On the other hand, I have an acquaintance who was recently involved in a year-long affair with his wife’s best friend. The two families were close, vacationing together for years, living in the same ward, etc. The result was terrible for both families.
Learning about this tragic situation has made me realize that it can happen to anyone, and that I do have to take precautions not only about where I am and whom I’m with, but about potential romantic feelings towards someone who’s not my spouse.
Thanks for the post.
This is particularly a problem in my career. Many of the young male associates frequently go to lunch with senior partners and get quality one-on-one mentoring and networking opportunities. However, I always have to have a “chaperon’ which reduces my opportunities to develop strong relationships with those who control our firm. I find it unfair and really ridiculous. I am married and these men are much older than me. And we would be having lunch in public places. I fail to see the danger in such situations. The only solution I have found — seek out the female partners (and there are a very limited number). I think this is very unprogressive and disappointing.
As the married man you spent at least an hour talking to last night, I felt it might be a good idea to respond to this. *grin*
Jana and I have always gotten along better with members of the opposite sex. Most of my close friends and confidants are women. Jana keeps in touch with several of her old boyfriends. Furthermore, we’ve entered a phase of our professional lives where many of our professional colleagues are of the opposite sex. Jana’s PhD advisor is a man and my boss is a woman. Each is only a few years older than us.
Here’s a few things that work for us:
* We communicate when we are with members of the opposite sex. This is founded on the principle that if we feel have something to hide, then we’ve crossed some boundary. It might be something as simple as, “I’ve got another meeting with So-and-so today,” or “Would you mind if I have lunch with [my old boyfriend/a female undergrad/etc.]?”
* I acknowledge that I am attracted to the opposite sex and that this is normal. It’s not unusual for me to experience a period of mild infatuation when attractive and/or charismatic women enter my life, be they coworkers, friends, etc. During this time I deliberately insert some emotional distance until the feelings pass. Usually the more I get to know someone, the more respect, trust and genuine compassion I have for them and all these, at least in my case, bring out the best in me and strengthen my commitment to Jana while creating a space where I can have an affirming relationship with others.
* We allow ourselves to crush on married celebrities. Jana dumped Brad Pitt some time ago and has two dozen Ewan McGregor movies in her Netflix queue (curse his gorgeous Scottish accent!). I have a very long engagement with Audrey Tautou. (And occasional flirtations with Cate Blanchett and Johnny Depp.)
I should mention that Jana and I are constantly renegotiating the specifics of our relationship to each other, so that the rules and guidelines that applied to us five years ago may not apply to us today.
JohnR, thanks for your response. : ) I’ve had a few conversations with Jana on this topic, and I’ll let her respond with her thoughts, but your relationship actually greatly inspires me. I do have a question, though. You mentioned that you discuss your boundaries and comfort levels with Jana (awesome), but do you also find it necessary to discuss that with said female friends? You say that you insert emotional distance until your feelings pass. What if it comes from the other direction?
I suppose everyone’s boundary lines are different, and it’s a matter of finding and respecting those lines.
Maria, I am always on the lookout for new climbing buddies. I’m ready anytime you want to go. ; )
mmiles, I think your feelings are common among Mormon women.
JohnW, the conversation to find what everyone is comfortable with is awkward… or I am awkward. How do you find what everyone is comfortable with?
Icer, “SO easily avoidable…” by cutting yourself off from everyone outside of immediate family?
mac brings out an interesting point about sabotaging your own career by cutting yourself off from members of the opposite sex. Maddening!
It’s not just a matter of men not being able to control themselves, it’s also a matter of them never giving their wives cause to wonder. That should never happen in any married relationship. Suspicion causes just as much or more damage than actual infidelity.
Additionally, it really isn’t appropriate to form ANY kind of bond with someone married of the opposite gender, even if it is just a fun-in-the-woods type of bond. It is utter hubris to assume that something that starts out entirely platonic could never change. By the time it would change, the brakes you were able to apply in the beginning subtly disappear, and it becomes too late.
Besides, what would happen if things developed on the other party’s side without your knowledge? Especially if they turn on you and decide to get revenge for feelings not returned by telling everyone you had an affair with them, even though it’s not true? (This has happened.) You might know exactly what is going on in your own head, but you can never know precisely how another person is feeling or thinking. It’s simply too risky.
It is a better idea to try to hook up with women, married or not, who enjoy the things you do. They are out there, and then you don’t have to wonder – and more importantly, neither do the wives or anyone else.
“Why even go there? When it’s SO easily avoidable…”
Except that I am not sure it is. I go to professional conferences where my husband is not along. One of those was in Phoenix–great rock climbing! I didn’t want to go alone, and thankfully I was able to get a group of both men and women to go with me.
I have a friend with whom I usually attend the banquet, which is more fun because he is there. A few years ago, his wife came, and it was wonderful to hang out with both of them. When my husband’s business took him to their town, I came along so that all four of us could meet. So everyone knows everyone, and it is all “above board.”
I think the litmus test is, “Do you behave the same with that person as you would if your spouse was there as well?” If so, it’s not really a problem.
But I still try to arrange group situations for things like rock climbing, to protect everyone from gossip or misunderstandings.
I don’t think that you should give up having friends of the opposite gender when you get married. Interestingly enough, most of the male friends that I have had in my life I have made after I got married. When I was growing up, I didn’t have many guy friends because I didn’t really know what to talk to guys about and there was always the awkward potential for people to misinterpret friendliness as romantic interest. I just didn’t feel that comfortable interacting with guys because that issue was always on the table. Now, that I am married I have been able to develop some really good friendships with guys because we know from the git-go what the nature of our relationship will be. It is true that most of these interactions are in group settings where both genders are present. I feel really comfortable in these circumstances and am grateful that I have really got to know some guys well. I feel like it rounds out and enriches my life by having a variety of friends.
I never said you had to cut off anyone entirely.
But,cutting out some 1v1 time with a friend is a far better option then risking upsetting my spouse or taking a chance that anything inappropriate that might be developing (like others said, it can come from the other side). So yeah. I stand by that these things are much easier to avoid when you keep it in a group setting.
“I find it unfair and really ridiculous. I am married and these men are much older than me. And we would be having lunch in public places. I fail to see the danger in such situations.”
You don’t get it. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. And very little to do with him. It is all about how society will view the interaction. Being professional is a great deal about avoiding even any image of impropriety.
You mentioned that you discuss your boundaries and comfort levels with Jana (awesome), but do you also find it necessary to discuss that with said female friends? You say that you insert emotional distance until your feelings pass. What if it comes from the other direction?
It seems that for the most part, subtle communication suffices for both of the situations you described above. Even as Jana and I have opened ourselves up over the years to more friends and working relationships with the opposite sex, I’ve become more protective of our relationship. I think that this has become ingrained at a subconscious level.
I sometimes step aside mentally and watch myself interact with others (a Buddhist self-awareness thing). At a recent management retreat, for example, when I was left alone in a lobby area with a beautiful female colleague, when she closed the distance and began speaking more personally, I crossed my arms and withdrew just a bit. It was enough to gently shift the tenor of our conversation. None of this was conscious on my part. I’m not sure if I would acted in quite the same way in more familiar settings, but away from Jana, working closely and intensely with brilliant and attractive women my age, I think I was on high alert.
I’ve had times in my life where I would’ve unconsciously sent the opposite cues (more flirtatious and inviting)–ironically when I was 100% active in the Church. Jana and I discussed this topic last night, and we came to the conclusion that while there are risks to our relationship in our relaxed and trusting approach, there are also risks inherent in the more careful restrictions encouraged by Church culture. A rule prohibiting a man and a woman from driving alone in a car or meeting behind a closed door together because they might commit adultery/fornication immediately imbues that situation with sex. Otherwise innocent encounters with the opposite sex become illicit.
I felt the tension in those situations much, much more when I followed these rules than I do now. I went to a play several months ago with a female friend and there was nothing sexual about the excursion (ironically, it was Steven Fales’ “Mormon Boy/X’d” production, and I think that most of the audience was composed of gay men). If I tried the same thing ten years ago, I would have imbued the entire experience with the potential for sexual peril.
One more thing: as I grow older, I rarely express affection physically (outside of family), except for occasional hugs. These I try to share equally with both men and women. I think this creates a barrier at least as effective as garment wearing.
These are long-winded responses, I know, but I think our habit of close examination and awareness is partly what makes the freedom that Jana and I experience possible. And it works for us, right now–I’m not in any way saying that this would work for all relationships.
Out to lunch said:
You don’t get it. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. And very little to do with him. It is all about how society will view the interaction. Being professional is a great deal about avoiding even any image of impropriety.
I would argue that the inference that a man and a woman can’t have lunch together without raising suspicions that they’re sleeping together is inherently sexist, especially in a male dominated economy. It reinforces glass ceilings for women and strengthens the “Old Boy’s” network. I think that it’s the obsolete, judgmental attitudes of the onlookers that need changing, not the practice of men and women working together.
“It is a better idea to try to hook up with women, married or not, who enjoy the things you do. They are out there, and then you don’t have to wonder…”
I am not so sure about this. I know a few women who have thought this, but discovered that they have same sex attraction. In some cases, it breaks up the marriage and leads to sin just as surely as if the lover were a man.
I don’t know if any of you watch “Dancing with the Stars,” but I am a huge fan. : ) I think it is a fascinating case study in working relationships with married folk.
Naismith, you bring up an interesting point about same sex attraction, which I’m would like to address.
Do you guard yourself as closely with people who are drawn to their own gender?
seraphicarus, How was Mormon Boy? (That’s probably another conversation for another venue, but remind me to ask about it.)
test
“I would argue that the inference that a man and a woman can’t have lunch together without raising suspicions that they’re sleeping together is inherently sexist”
I never said it wasn’t sexist. In fact I agree with you that it is. All that aside, seeing a married man having lunch with a woman he isn’t married to still raises eyebrows in our culture.
I disagree with OUt to Lunch. I think being professional means associating with colleagues. Even on a one on one basis. I can’t imagine what Mike’s professor colleagues would think of him if he refused to go out to lunch with a female, because she’s a female.
i think Out to Lunch is out to lunch. In my experience in the professional world and in the academic world, seeing a married person with another unmarried person does not equate to a sexually compromising position, regardless of the sex of either person. That’s just how our world works. And it’s how our world should work. And I for one absolutely refuse to cater to ridiculous misconceptions and prejudices our society perpetuates simply because our society does perpetuate them. good heavens! how are problems supposed to change if we just keep living our lives in keeping with them instead of living good lives that refuse to conform to them?
and i want to say amen to everything seraphicarus has said. My relationship is nascent compared to his, but its dynamic feels very much like what seraphicarus describes. I simply do not understand being jealous or hurt simply because one’s partner spends an hour over lunch with another woman. or (in my case) spends six hours dancing with other women, many of whom are much more beautiful than I am. or whatever it may be.
i know–i should be more sympathetic to other people and their genuine feelings. I am. I don’t insist that everyone else’s relationships be like mine. And I think every couple should figure this question out for themselves so that they make their first priority first. But I also think that the rest of us should stop wondering what’s “really” going on when we see a married person with an unmarried person. That would do wonders to helping the problem.
and i think the church’s policies on this question are stupid. for the reasons seraphicarus already much more eloquently stated.
About colleagues eating together…for several of my jobs, I have worked out of my own home. So when an editor or supervisor wants to meet in person (which was required annually, in some cases), where do I hold that meeting?
For me, a restaurant seemed the logical place, far less intimate than inviting them to my home in the middle of the day when my husband is not home.
It pains me to think others would be judging me for that choice, when I thought I was making the best choice possible.
As a professional woman in a Fortune 100 company, I can’t imagine not building friendships with my male colleagues. We work hard, and we have to be there for each other. You can’t really do that without befriending each other. The key to keeping thing legit is to keep your relationship with your spouse solid (stay best friends), not do anything you couldn’t do with either of your spouses present, and to not engage in “emotional affairs.”
BTW, Seraphicarus = JohnR. It looks like WordPress automatically logged me in (I only use the Seraphicarus login to track stats on my own WordPress blog).
“I respect the marriage relationship, and “I have no desire to breach it, but what happens when I run out of friends because they’re married?”
The solution is simple. Get married. Problem solved.
here’s my question: is JB being an ass? or is that some attempt at humor?
sure, getting married is one way to deal with all of one’s friends getting married and finding that your social circle has been so shaken up that you’re not sure how to cope with it. but you know what? unless you want to be married just for the sake of being married and you’re willing to put up with the sub-par relationship that’s likely to result, it just doesn’t work that way.
maybe i’m over-reacting. but i’ve heard far too many people make such statements and actually mean it to let it go without comment.
Fascinating post and comments.
I think there’s something to both sides of this. On the one hand, human beings are sexual creatures. We may feel attraction for people who we’re around, regardless of whether one or both parties are married. And acting on that attraction can have problematic consequences.
On the other hand, we’re not bonobos, completely slaves to our sexual impulses. Humans have some degree of self-control.
So it seems correct to say both, on the one hand, there is a natural danger. And on the other hand, that mature people should be able to exercise appropriate self-control.
But the tension between those two points is well known. It’s the basis for the famous back-and-forth from When Harry Met Sally, about why men and women can never be “just friends.”
—
Harry Burns: You realize of course that we could never be friends.
Sally Albright: Why not?
Harry Burns: What I’m saying is – and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or form – is that men and women can’t be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.
Sally Albright: That’s not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.
Harry Burns: No you don’t.
Sally Albright: Yes I do.
Harry Burns: No you don’t.
Sally Albright: Yes I do.
Harry Burns: You only think you do.
Sally Albright: You say I’m having sex with these men without my knowledge?
Harry Burns: No, what I’m saying is they all WANT to have sex with you.
Sally Albright: They do not.
Harry Burns: Do too.
Sally Albright: They do not.
Harry Burns: Do too.
Sally Albright: How do you know?
Harry Burns: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.
Sally Albright: So, you’re saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive?
Harry Burns: No. You pretty much want to nail ’em too.
Sally Albright: What if THEY don’t want to have sex with YOU?
Harry Burns: Doesn’t matter because the sex thing is already out there so the friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story.
Sally Albright: Well, I guess we’re not going to be friends then.
Harry Burns: I guess not.
Sally Albright: That’s too bad. You were the only person I knew in New York.
Watch out, there, seraphicarus. While you’re chatting with Zenaida, Mrs. Seraphicarus may be having conversations with very unsavory bloggernacle types . . . 😛
p.s. Do you really think Johnny Depp is cuter than, say, Jake Gyllenhaal?
Just askin’ . . .
kaimi, what kind of question is that!? clearly johnny depp is far cuter than jake gyllenhaal. especially in character for chocolat…
[…] go read this. Then come back for the study questions […]
Wow. Just…where to start? As a married-woman-of-opposite-sex-friend-of-Seraphicus, he sent me this article for my thoughts. My thoughts were are much better summed up in the post I just wrote. But I would also like to respond to some of the people in here:
As a general comment, I find that just knowing that I’m married helps clear up certain boundaries. I don’t wear a ring to remind myself that I’ve got a wonderful husband at home or that I don’t really want to spend the rest of my life with the person I’m at lunch with, but to subtly advertise the fact that, while I might ask you to lunch, I mean it in a platonic way.
JB: how different would Zenaida’s marriage make her interactions with married men (other than her own hypothetical married man)? Just because she’s now attached means all sexuality evaporates? That’s either naïve, stupid, or paternalistic. Or do you mean that, once she has a married man of her own to hike with, she will no longer need someone else’s? Again, that’s either…&c. I truly hope it was a joke, poking fun at the fact that sometimes society seems to think that men and women should be constantly separated by a sacred screen.
What I would like to say to OutToLunch has mostly been said, so I shall leave it be & just say “dittos” to those who did respond.
Kaimi: It may be that all human relationships are ruled by sex, but that doesn’t mean that all human relationships will end in sex. Hiking with members of the opposite sex may indeed give one occasion to admire the shapely calf of this one, the well-chiseled shoulders of the other, but these acknowledgements, much as Seraphicus has already noted, need not end in sexual relations. They can be acknowledged as, in the manner of a celebrity crush, a reminder that there are beautiful people in the world (just as there are beautiful flowers, and vistas) who are nonetheless untouchable, for whatever reason. They can be buried or confessed as committing-adultary-in-your-mind. They can even cross the mind of someone without sex being involved: I have certainly admired women in the past: their hair, their dress, their bodies; but not in a manner that I feel is particularly sexual (being, as far as I know, a heterosexual female). Sex is a part of our being. But it is not the only part.
I’ve never felt weird about hanging out with guys (married or single) until someone else brought it up, and then it feels so awkward. I feel like a child being chastized for not knowing better.
Just last night, I attended a fireside where the topic was chastity. We were given a hypothetical situation in which the girl who manages to avoid fornication and marries in the temple and has a happy life is compared with the girl who sleeps with her boyfriend before marrying, lies to the biship to get a temple marriage, has an affair, and several marriages later ends up an unhappy old hag with no family. (sigh) This may not have anything to do with anything, but it is very typical Mormon view of sex.
how depressing. whenever i hear presentations about chastity like that, i have to wonder whether the person presenting has ever heard of a little thing called the atonement. and that it can actually work for women (or men) who have committed sexual sin.
in our efforts to use fear as a tool for encouraging good behavior, we often pervert the truths of the gospel. if only we would use the truths and principles of the gospel (honesty, integrity, repentance, etc.) rather than fear to explain and encourage…
Zenaida:
Was the story from your fireside portrayed as “true” or was it just a hypothetical example?
I’m really bothered by the idea that if you do everything “right” you get all of the goodies and if you make a mistake then you end up an “old hag.” There area all kinds of problems with this line of thinking. One could look to Job for a good example of someone who endured a lot of hardship even though he didn’t sin. Even Joseph Smith had a really sucky life even though he did whatever the Lord asked him to do.
Zenaida:
I think you should feel exactly the opposite! You’re the one who’s acting mature. All of this sounds so much like “girls/boys have cooties”…
Hello, like to ask you guys a question: what do you think of “emotional infidelity”?, I know people, whose affairs started just as an innocent friendship but then it turns into an affair.
Sephora, good question. While I have no problem with the idea of married men and women hanging out as friends, I’d personally be cautious about forming intense, emotional relationships with people of the opposite sex. I know I would not like my husband to do that, so I would try to avoid that situation too.
That said, I do think it’s natural that once in a while a married person may develop a bit of a crush on someone else. That’s not ideal, of course, but I think it does happen and that it doesn’t necessarily lead to questionable behavior.
And I agree with xjane. It’s the others who are blowing something innocent out of proportion.
Spending a lot of time in museums just now, I can say that there is something to be learned from viewing great art. The first is, “Look, but don’t touch.” I tend to think that this rule also applies to many of the people I meet in life. Same with, “Learn to appreciate, and don’t feel like you have to own.”
This is an old post, but I just found this site.
I run into this problem often. I love to climb mountains. There are very few women mountaineers and even fewer alpine rockclimbers. It is almost impossible for me to find other women to climb with so I climb with male partners. Some are married, but we are very careful to set appropriate boundaries. I often hear criticism for that from other members of the church.
Zenaida, if you haven’t made it up Whitney yet, it’s a mountain that I would like to head up or if you’re interested in other peaks, let me know.
cyano, welcome! I have not made it up Whitney yet, and would love to do it.
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