This morning I listened to a new episode on the Latter Day Struggles podcast with therapist Valerie Hamaker and her husband Nathan, called “Patriarchy and its Connection to Low Empathy in Men”. (Episode 283 – check it out!)
I’m very familiar as a woman within Mormonism how patriarchy has harmed me personally. I find it therapeutic to write my experiences out here on the Exponent II blog and connect with other women who have felt the same way. I’m still recognizing new forms of damage in my life because of this system to this day. So much of it is hidden from us when we grow up immersed in it and are told it’s a positive way to live by people we admire and love.
I also know that patriarchy hurts men. It hurts everyone.
I appreciated Nathan’s honesty and vulnerability in sharing beliefs he had growing up in a world where he only saw men in leadership at church. He’d been taught that men and women were blessed with separate (but equal) gifts and abilities from God. He also learned it was the men who had the innate ability to protect, provide and preside over others.
As a young boy he noticed Margaret Thatcher serving as the Prime Minister in England and secretly thought, “Something’s wrong over there – they’re really screwed up! Let’s get her out and get back to a male leader.” As an LDS youth who’d seen women banned from church leadership positions, he overcame his cognitive dissonance by deciding women must not be capable of leadership – the same way he wasn’t capable of giving birth to babies.
At the local leadership level the church used to have both Ward Council (where select women were invited) and then Priesthood Executive Council (PEC) where the women were dismissed and the real ward issues were discussed.
Nathan admitted to attending both meetings for many years and seeing Ward Council as more of a joke. They’d talk about the children and the teenage girls’ activities, but PEC was where they tackled the real problems once there were only men in the room. He now sees this as having been patronizing to women, because the real decisions were always made in the meetings they weren’t invited to.
I wish I could say only sexist men ever had these kinds of thoughts, but as a young woman in the church I had them all the time too! At the age of twenty I traveled to Independence, Missouri and visited the RLDS (now called Community of Christ) Temple as a tourist, and noticed pictures on the wall of their female apostles and church leaders.
I was very turned off. I thought, “Well, that’s not how it’s done!” I felt like the Holy Ghost was testifying to me that this wasn’t a true church because seeing women in leadership was so off-putting to me personally.
I also remember once visiting teaching the wife of a bishop and her telling me, “Oh, I understand why women aren’t supposed to be bishops. My husband can turn things off when he comes home and separate the rest of his life from his calling. I’m the opposite – I’d be thinking about everything all the time! Men can just compartmentalize things in a way women can’t.”
The teachings about women and leadership were usually camouflaged in some benevolent sexism, but sometimes they were overt. I had a seminary teacher pose a hypothetical question to my class: “Could God ever choose to have a woman as the prophet?” He answered his own question by saying, “Only if there wasn’t a single worthy man anywhere on the planet left.” (Meaning essentially, no, it’s never going to happen.)
This taught me that God would rather choose the absolute least qualified man on earth to lead his church than literally any woman, no matter how good she was. This impacted me in ways I’m still coming to understand in terms of my self-confidence and self-esteem.
Both men and women who grow up in the LDS church tend to devalue the ability of women and girls to provide leadership, even when it means actively arguing against their own abilities and well-being. There is nothing inherently masculine about leadership skills, though!
Some women are great at leading groups and some men are terrible at it, and we are hurting everyone in a system that only puts men at the top of every power structure (from head of the local branch to head of the entire church).
Do you have memories of distrusting the leadership skills of women?
23 Responses
I don’t know that I distrust the leadership of women. But I did absorb the message that any woman wanting to lead is bad, naggy, shrill, bossy, and a certain word that rhymes with witch. I think I understood they were capable, but I assumed it was sinful or wrong for them to want to do it.
I see this for men too with many men acting like it’s a point of pride that they can’t change a diaper. They’ve never been “tempted” to love and care for their children (cue biggest eye roll of the century).
I don’t know that I distrust the leadership of women. But I did absorb the message that any woman wanting to lead is bad, naggy, shrill, bossy, and a certain word that rhymes with witch. I think I understood they were capable, but I assumed it was sinful or wrong for them to want to do it.
I see this for men too with many men acting like it’s a point of pride that they can’t change a diaper. They’ve never been “tempted” to love and care for their children (cue biggest eye roll of the century).
I attended stake conference last week and was able to listen to multiple leaders as they provided excellent counsel. The one leader whose words I most remember was the matron of the Layton Temple. She was poised and spoke with a personal conviction and what I would call “power and authority,” which came from her personal life and the laying on of hands by those who had been called of God.
Yes, many women are much better at leading groups than some men, and I am grateful that I’ve been led and inspired by many such women throughout my Church-life, including my dear old Primary chorister who helped sing rhe testimony of Jesus into my heart. She reminded me of the Savior’s words in Mark 9:25
“And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any [wo]man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all..”
Yes, that was dear Sister Pearl Hussey, and so many more female leaders in this Church. My greatest teacher was my mother, Shirley Maxine Farnsworth Berlin, who taught me by virtue of her motherly love and authority, but also by what I would call “priesthood power.” She had it in my estimation.
I’ve also been blessed to inherit her mother’s (Theda Daisy Woodard Farnsworth’s) journals, letters, and six volumes of her theological musings, writings, and teachings. Now, there was a leader! I hold her in the highest esteem as my grandmother and matriarch. Praise for my matriarchy that worked “with” my patriarchy to bless my life!
What Paul said to Timothy, is equally true for me:
“When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother [Theda], and thy mother [Shirley]; and I am persuaded that in thee also” (2 Timothy 1:5).
These are the leaders who first planted faith in Jesus Christ and God in my heart. They were also members of this Church. Yes, the “LDS Church” does believe in women leaders and I praise God for those who have led and continue to lead me.
I can see you personally love and respect the women in your life. What the blogger is saying that systemically the institution does not, because…. Actions speak louder than words. Full stop. When the institution continues to shut out women’s voices, experience, and influence in the highest levels of all wards, stakes and general offices, despite the rhetoric that women “really do” have access to priesthood (through men) or that we “value and love” women, it’s always the actions that speak the loudest.
I’ve been given a special assignment and recently was given counsel by both my ward RS president and her counselor to assist me in that assignment. That counsel was extremely beneficial to me. I reported back to them on my successful efforts. I appreciate their leadership and follow their counsel in my effort to minister to others in the name of Christ. I believe we are all types of Christ as we follow His servant-leader example.
As I mentioned earlier, I think Sister Hussey, and these good RS sisters, are the very type of leaders Christ spoke about to His apostles., and their standing has been and will be as “first” as any other leader, be they apostles, prophets, or whatever.
I don’t doubt at all that you love and respected and learned from these women in your life, James. I’m discussing in this blog post how women are kept out of leadership positions in the church, such as bishop, stake president or general authority. A primary chorister or speaker might provide something valuable to the listeners, but she’s never in leadership over the organization or the meeting.
Similarly, I love and learn a lot from my children – but they aren’t the ones leading my family. Women are loved on the church, but never in positions of leadership.
I’m not sure “that actions speak louder than words,” at least not in all cases. It was both the words and actions of the women I mentioned in my initial comment that ”led” me to Christ.
I went back and looked at my notes from the above-mentioned stake conference. My notes caused me to remember also the words of our stake RS president. She has long been a inspiration to me. She spoke eloquently of Jesus as our “Perfect Brightness of Hope.” Those were the words I need to hear in that Saturday night session. I cannot speak for all men, but when women speak in our meetings, I look to them as “my leaders” and I give heed to their counsel. I don’t think I have missed one talk given by the sister leaders at General Conference in the last forty years. I honor and revere these women leaders — my leaders.
Although they may not now, or ever, serve in some positions, that hasn’t taken away their ability to lead me. Their actions and words have shaped my discipleship. That’s what real leaders do.
I appreciate your comments, James. Please stick around and keep reading and commenting and learning from the wide variety of women’s experiences here on the blog. I still believe we are talking about very different things. You have felt led by women in a very personal manner (I don’t doubt that at all, and I love that you value women’s voices and perspectives so much). However, in the church as a whole, women are not leaders.
For example, a primary presidents must obey her bishop, even if she disagrees with his ideas (and he can release her and call someone new if she doesn’t listen to him). He’s the one in ultimate leadership in the ward, not her – even if she does a lot of work and touches individual children’s hearts.
I love when men value women’s voices on an individual level like you do. I love that you listen to women’s talks during general conference. Many members don’t. This will continue to be a systemic problem for the entire church until we make major changes, even if some men individually value women’s personal leadership in their lives.
Lots of love, James! Thank you sincerely for reading and commenting.
Abby, thank you for your earnest efforts to help me see your and other women’s perspectives, and for your welcoming me into your space, which I deem is sacred space. I leaned that from Grandma Theda as well.
I believe I see what you are saying regarding leadership at the “top.” I am not an authority of that matter and revere our prophets and apostles sufficiently to believe that that is in their realm of responsibility.
But, I I can speak from my own “top” leadership assignment (I still think my influence as a nursery worker was just as important in God’s eyes as any other leadership calling and the kind of real leadership I’ve been emphasizing—I had been released as a bishop and I reported to a very young, single female Nursery Leader), which I suppose was being a bishop. I worked with two separate RS presidents, whom I treated like counselors and even above my counselors in some respects. We made decisions together and I often followed their lead. We were united in our service. I never told them what to do. We followed Elder Ballard’s counsel to “counsel with our councils.”
Those were wonderful days. I pray for more days where women and men serve and lead together.
I’ll keep “sticking” around and listening so I can get better at it.
James – You mentioned going from being a bishop to being a nursery worker. For a woman’s perspective on this, can I have you read a post I wrote five years ago where I talk about exactly this?
https://exponentii.org/blog/does-a-primary-president-have-any-real-authority/
My guess is that you are one of those men in the LDS church who all of the women loves serving under and working with. I think (from what I’ve read from you) that you are genuinely one of the good ones. I still believe the system is very flawed, where even the best men doing their very best can’t make it right. I believe full equality is the only answer if we’re trying to build Zion together.
If you read the post I shared, you’re welcome to share your thoughts on it!
I’m eager to read your post. This has been a fruitful dialogue. I desire to learn more and am sure I will as I read your post.
I have strong women in my life. I’ve been influenced and shaped by them for many years. Some have views like my mother and grandmother, some do not. Some hold similar views to you and others I’ve read over the years on Exponet II. If I’ve been one of the “good ones” over the years, it has been in part that I have listened to all of these women.
Like you, I’ve seen terrible examples of men in leadership positions who exercise “unrighteousness domination.” I really believe the “amen to their authority” as mentions in D&C. 121. They may still exercise authority over others, but it is not “priesthood authority..” it’s shameful.!
Unfortunately, I have also seen examples of women in authority who are equally abusive. Yes, there are some “authority systems” that are flawed or less effective than others, but more than the systems, it is flawed people who make any authority system flawed — from parents, to priesthood, to sports, monarchy, to modern education, to employment, etc. I’ve seen horrible examples of leadership and great abuse by men and women in all these systems, and I believe the flaw lies mostly in people and not the system.
Having said that, I look forward to reading your article and expanding my views through your perspective. As my sister — who is another strong woman in my life — tells me, “listen to learn.” I like that and will try to do it.
Thanks Abby!
Abby, I read your “Primary” post from five years ago, as well as all the replies and comments. Thank you for pointing me to that article.
You invited me to comment on it, which I suppose I can still do at that location. If I find I am unable to do that, I will come back to this post and comment here on that post.
I must say that I am a little hesitant or at least cautious about doing so after having read some of the interchanges that went on in the replies. There seemed to be big signs of “No men wanted here!” or at least “No comments from men who have a different opinion from mine wanted here!” in some of the comments. I want to avoid treading on that ground.
My husband has dealt with massive depressive episodes off an on for the 15+ years of our marriage. The way it impacted him created a situation where any desire to “preside” or make decisions or “be present” was virtually non-existent. We have kids, so family decisions and family leadership was still required. I had massive bouts of cognitive dissonance because my husband couldn’t preside – and the decision-making he could do felt unhealthy to me (so wasn’t leadership or decision-making that I trusted).
The first big bout, I got solace from my dad that “I could be an authorized family presider” the same way that a 1st counselor supports a bishop. This actually helped a lot on my journey because if I was “legitimate” then I could get done what needed to be done.
It also made things worse though because of the contacts I had in Relief Society where I would talk about any of my struggles and get “same” – these women were decision-makers too, these women were presiding too.
During and after the 2nd bout, I absolutely owned that in my family, “I presided” and “I provided” – and I should absolutely be off the hook for “nurturing” (though I am not sure what that even means – I think it’s the “emotional labor” of logistics [which anyone can do], and the unpaid counseling gig of emotional support [which we can teach anyone to be emotionally healthier and create emotional connections]). I insisted on space for my leadership capabilities and I changed our family culture.
I walked away from church community in part because the family culture framework in “the Proclamation to the Family” wasn’t working for me in how it described what I do, what I value, and who I am. I wanted honest representation upfront instead of the death/disability loophole that aided in a “I do it all” type of way.
As a young women, I was told by my YW leaders that I did not have what it takes to be a leader. Where did this come from?? Who knows but I feel it is patriarchy at play. This statement has stayed with me my entire life. I am now 60 and it still echo’s in my mind all the time. Patriarchy is so damaging and I have realized in the last two years how it has effected my whole whole life and what I thought I was capable of. I don’t know if I’ll ever stop hearing that damaging statement in my head.
I had similar moments in my church experience where I heard a leader say something about women or girls (for example, in my post above when the seminary teacher said a woman could only be prophet if there were no other worthy men on earth left). They stuck with me for years and still come up occasionally. The things we learn while we are creating the foundational beliefs for our entire lives are painful to deconstruct and rid ourselves of.
Shiloh, I resonate, as a child I was told I didn’t have it in me to become a professional teacher because I was shy and gentle mannered. I still resent that. Adults didn’t have faith I’d ever have the skills to run a classroom. This instance still haunts me as I face challenges and my social anxiety rears its head. Recently, I was called as a choir director. I don’t have choral conducting skills. My husband was called as the choir president. He loves choral conducting and is very extroverted and skilled at this. The bishop refused to switch the callings extended. We switched them on our own after being called. I’m not very interested in learning those technical + leadership skills in front of a guinea pig audience. But I feel shame that I don’t have the guts to just put myself out there and figure it out.
I’ve realized as an adult that as a child and youth, being very indoctrinated with this sense that women can’t make competent leaders, part of my unconscious work-around was to identify as (at least partly) spiritually male! I did not have gender dysphoria and I am not trans or non-binary today. But I had this weird, hardly conscious assumption that while other women might not be worth listening to or hearing in general conference, I would be. I could make my voice and style of sharing as masculine, assertive, and confident as needed for them to accept me as a true equal, someone worth listening to.
I remember instances when men in my life actually said that they had more gifts and more of a right than women to articulate spiritual things, teach the gospel, and decided questions of doctrine because they were male and had the priesthood.
As a grown-up, I saw that I was just as good at thinking, writing, public speaking, and being a spiritual leader as my dad and many of the Mormon men I admired, regardless of gender and priesthood differences. Seemed like gender and priesthood didn’t actually really matter when it came to potential to be a strong leader or someone who sheds light on things.
The OP is excellent. I relate so much to still unpacking how patriarchy has harmed my life. Candice, I completely relate to you. When I hit puberty, I started to eschew feminine things like pink, hearts, butterflies, etc because I could see how devalued and disrespected the feminine was. Instead I turned my efforts to being intelligent because this was a way I could prove that I was good or better than my male peers. I would be respected if I didn’t act girly or have superficial interests. When I was at BYU and considering doing a Masters degree, a part of me felt like this was forbidden because I was married, and almost no married women continued their education beyond a Bachelors degree. I did my Masters degree, and I’m so glad I did. I have had a career in tech for the last 9 years. I left the church 4 years ago, but when I would meet men in wards, they would mostly ignore me and focus on my husband. Then my husband would mention my work, and they would look at me as if I had magically appeared. It’s truly amazing how the church preaches separate but equal, but patriarchal men don’t see women as full human beings unless they see them doing the same things men do.
It’s a horrible cycle, where women should be valued regardless of their paid or unpaid labor. But women have to “prove” they are capable of paid work like men in order to earn respect. But of course this is a no win situation, as other men can be threatened by women’s professional success. This is also a no win situation for women at church, where women are prohibited from performing the same work as men. While James’ comments are well-meaning, there are zero structural or institutional policies or doctrines that hold men accountable for following female leadership or treating female decisions with respect. When there are no formal guardrails or consequences for sexist behavior or actions, the dehumanization of women thrives. Just think if there was no formal repentance process for serious sins. Think if there were no questions for a temple recommend. Patriarchal men would be horrified at the moral relativism and lack of accountability that could flourish. Yet they balk at the idea of having policies and guardrails that ensure respect and human dignity for women. Instead they think the good will of individual men is sufficient. They completely dismiss the real lived experiences of women who know the anguish and destruction of patriarchy firsthand.
This was my experience too, and one of the key reasons why I do identify as nonbinary: I socialized myself male in the hopes of being recognized and respected the way I desperately wanted! I made a point starting in primary to be the most knowledgeable, best behaved student in my class. And I was! My best friends in school were almost all boys—church was the only place where they wouldn’t acknowledge me as being just as smart and capable as them.
To my immense surprise, working in corporate America has been the single most empowering experience of my life, because I am welcomed for who I am and what I can do rather than being judged for being too much or too masculine. The trade-off is that church has never been harder, because I know what equality looks and feels like now. I know that I am more than a walking womb. But our church structure and culture won’t acknowledge any of this, because it means discarding patriarchy.
I love this!
I feel like men in the church are constantly told about what they can do and who they can become. As a women, I feel like I’ve only ever been told what I CAN’T do. I can’t be a leader, hold the priesthood, heal the sick, make decisions, pass the sacrament, preside in my own home etc… The only thing I really can do is have babies which I would argue isn’t even really me doing that. Having babies has a lot more to do with my body than who I am as a person.
Amen. There are so many ways to be a “successful” Mormon man. It feels like there’s only one way to be a “successful” Mormon woman: be a beautiful, gentle-mannered mother of multiple children.
I live in the Midwest and am an attending physician that supervises residents during their training. I also am on the hiring committee for our group once the residents graduate. We rarely offer positions to the Mormon men as they regularly have difficulty working with the female attendings in our group and we often receive complaints from the nursing staff about disrespectful behavior. As this particular problem seems to be isolated to the Mormon men, I can’t help but think it stems from church participation.
My husband got his bachelor’s degree in business from BYU, and the dean of his college mentioned this problem specifically, that some companies had concerns about hiring Mormon men because of their sexist behavior in the workplace. I believe the issue was they would do internships, and then receive negative feedback from the women at the internship company. This was a problem the dean was trying to fix among the male students. Don’t know if he succeeded or not. This was in 2012.