by Rachel Noorda
Seven years ago, I interviewed to be a professor at BYU. I’d recently finished my PhD and I was excited about the interview because it was in my very specific subfield and also because it would be teaching and researching at the place where I earned my bachelor’s degree many years before. My university education began at BYU and it seemed like completing the circle to end back at BYU to start my career.
When I was an undergrad at BYU, I didn’t have many professors who were women. But when I did, I inevitably gravitated toward them. Those women became some of my favorite people and best mentors, and they answered my questions about PhD work, wrote me letters of recommendations, and gave me research jobs on campus. I am forever grateful to them. That’s what I wanted to be for the female students at BYU.
But the interview process went very differently than I thought it would.
I was one of two final candidates for the position. My interview was a three-day process that consisted of two lunches and one dinner with faculty from the department; interviews with the department chair, dean, and a general authority; a research presentation to faculty; and a teaching demonstration to students. Intense interview processes like this are not uncommon in academia.
Over the course of the process, I experienced a multitude of what Michael Baran and Tiffany Jana have called “subtle acts of exclusion” (SAEs). That is the term I will be using, although many other terms would also apply (microaggressions, sexism and ageism, etc).
SAE #1: Weren’t you my student recently?
Since this was the same department where I had received my undergraduate degree at BYU, I had taken classes from many of the faculty who were now part of my interview process and my potential colleagues should I get the job. Many of the faculty took delight in the fact that I had my start in their department at BYU, and I enjoyed chatting with them. But others used this opportunity to subtly imply that I was too young to be a competent, knowledgeable colleague.
One particular faculty member went as far as to search through his old class lists, find my name and my picture from when I was a student of his, and then show it to everyone while we were chatting over lunch. I tried to laugh it off by saying, “Oh wow! I can’t believe you found that. That’s a blast from the past.”
To which he replied, “It was only a few years ago.” I didn’t know how to respond. A recent Women in the Workplace report showed that early-career women suffer from ageism more than any other group.
SAE #2: Minimizing accomplishments
I was very proud of the fact that I passed my PhD thesis defense with no corrections. This is a very rare thing, and I had put in a lot of hard work to my thesis writing and oral exam preparation to make this happen.
However, when someone brought this up to praise me in one of our lunch discussions, another faculty member piped in to say, “Yes, but you got your PhD in the UK, didn’t you? You wouldn’t have passed with no corrections if you did your PhD in the US; it’s much more rigorous here.”
I wish I had been more confident in myself at the time to push back on what this colleague said. But at the time, I just wilted a little and changed the subject.
SAE #3: Faculty meetings are priesthood meetings.
On the evening of the second day, I went to dinner with members of the department. It ended up being me and six male colleagues. It was good food and we chatted about a variety of things at first, like musical talents and church callings. Then one of the faculty members said, “You know, our department meetings can be kind of like priesthood meetings. You’re going to need to speak up so you can be heard.”
He may as well have said, “Our department has very few women and is sexist, so you’ll have to fight if you want any voice or representation as our colleague.”
I stammered some weak response about being up to the challenge, but the comment shook me. On the one hand, at least they recognized how very unrepresented women were in their department, But they weren’t doing anything about it, other than to push the only women in the department to fight for whatever the powerful male department majority would give them. It made me very aware that I was different from them because I was a woman.
SAE #4: How will you uphold the patriarchy for students?
The worst part of the entire process was my interview with the general authority. He was a member of the quorum of the seventy, but no one that I had met before or was very familiar with. I was asked to have my husband come with me, so I brought him along. I was grateful to have him there because he is my #1 support, but I also wondered why he needed to be there when I was the one applying for the job, not him.
The general authority was nice enough, and he had a tidy office with lots of light. My husband and I sat down on a couch opposite the general authority’s desk. I felt guilt build inside me when he asked how often I read my scriptures, because I read them but I wasn’t always consistent about doing so daily. His reactions to my answers didn’t give anything away.
Toward the end of the interview, he asked me this: “If a female student comes to you with worries about how women do not have the priesthood, what will you say to her?”
Would he have asked me that if I had been a man? I understand that BYU is an LDS school, but asking one woman to justify to another woman why they both have so little power in the church is very frustrating.
In the end, they chose the other candidate (who was a man) for the position. I very fortunately found a tenure-track faculty job in my specialization, with amazing colleagues (including a high proportion of wonderful women).
But if BYU wants to best support women, including their own female students, some of these issues need to be addressed.
What have your experiences been with BYU? Or working for the church?
Rachel Noorda is an Associate Professor at Portland State University and director of a graduate program in book publishing there. She’s originally from Utah, but studied in Scotland and really enjoys currently living in the Pacific Northwest. She loves to bake, read, and spend time with her husband.
35 Responses
Wow, just wow Rachel. Thank you for sharing this experience. The patriarchy is alive and well.
As a man I never really noticed it could be a problem. Of course, why would I, the rules are set up for me. I’m early in my feminist journey after seeing things pointed out by my three daughters whom I raised in the church.
Can’t. Unsee. Them.
Thank you for sharing your story! I’ve heard very similar things from other women I know who have interviewed at BYU.
It makes me so sad that other women go through this too. If BYU wants more women represented in the faculty, this has to change.
Very disheartening. I understand that the question twenty years ago to female job candidates was: “What would you do if a student told you she was praying to Heavenly Mother?” The candidate that was asked that question also wasn’t offered the job. So glad you found a better position later.
It seems like the questions might change slightly, but the root of the questions is the same: will you uphold the patriarchy for other women (female students)?
In my faculty interview process, about 15 years ago now, they asked my bishop if my husband was dead or disabled, because that would explain why I needed to work outside the home. When the answer was no, they asked if he would be sure to continue working after we moved to Provo (I suppose because they could maybe handle a working mom but they could not handle a stay at home dad).
They also refused to do the standard interview process meals with me because the department at the time only had male faculty and it would be inappropriate for men to have dinner with a woman.
They told me that all the faculty in the department had served as bishops, and that was basically taken as a rite of passage to show the leadership presence necessary to be awarded tenure (or byu’s version of it anyway). They said they weren’t sure how I would get tenure, being a woman who can’t be bishop, and laughed about it.
The fact that so much of this is acknowledged, said aloud, joked about, taken as a given–that’s a whole other level of horrifying. They’re all fine with this. It’s standard. They’re not bothered in the least, why are you so bothered by it? It is .rage-inducing.
Oh, Cynthia. I am so sorry. How horrible! I am childless, which shielded me somewhat from some of those questions, I believe.
The “men can’t be alone with women” idea is going to absolutely have to change for women to have a better experience as faculty at BYU. How can colleagues connect and work together if men and women can never be alone together? Infuriating.
Yeah it’s kinda wild that they managed to go against a bunch of different employment law no-nos at once with a single line of questioning (asking about marriage status, disability, children, sex discrimination). That said, they claim that they are exempt from federal nondiscrimination law, because their discrimination is tied to their religious freedom.
Isn’t it illegal to ask that type of family question? It’s none of their business what your husband does or doesn’t do.
Oh oops I replied to your comment but on the comment above.
Wow, that made me so ragey. All of it. But in reflecting on it, what makes me the most angry is the writer’s husband being asked to accompany her to the interview with the GA. I know in some hiring processes spouses are included in things like meals or group events because there’s a recognition that academia can be hard on families, but a) this was not that; this was an actual interview portion of the job interview process and b) are male candidates told to bring their wives? Maybe the answer is yes and please tell me if I’m wrong (although that’s still a boundary issue–you’re not hiring the couple and you should hire an adult who can manage their own relationships and assume they’re talking with their spouse about these decisions), but based on how men are consulted when/before their wives are given certain callings, I just have a suspicion.
You know, things happen in the church and its institutions and I wonder if maybe it’s getting better–not soon enough, not fast enough, not big enough–but maybe we’re taking steps in the right direction. And then garbage like this and the changes to the handbook re: trans people and leaders tell me to stop asking questions about where tithing money is going and I realize no it is not getting better and I truly doubt there will ever be meaningful change that actually results in equality. It’s all window dressing.
It makes me ragey too! I have heard differing stories about men and the GA interviews. One man I talked to had interviewed with BYU (including the GA interview) and was not told that his wife needed to participate, so she didn’t. I was appalled when I heard that. I don’t know if that varies by general authority, or if it’s a policy that it’s more important for women to bring spouses then men to the GA interview.
When my husband interviewed at BYU 35 years ago I had to go with him to GA interview. He was offered the job. When we got home he was told offer had been rescinded with no reason given. I think God answered my unexpressed prayers. I would have HATED living in Utah! Have loved Seattle where we landed v
I love the Pacific Northwest! So glad that it turned out well for you. BYU would not have been a good fit for me either, but it was hard to see at the time.
Several years ago (circa 2001) I was being considered for a full-time seminary teaching position. I taught early-morning seminary in California, and my local CES director thought I had what it took to be full-time. I went through the whole thing — “special” visitors in my classes to observe my style and a home interview with some CES dude from SLC. That guy had the good grace, after similarly grilling me about why I was single (pearl-clutching info for the powers that be that want their people neat and tidy in their marriage checkboxes) and what it was like being a single woman in the Church, to tell me that if I were up against a married man for the same position, the man would get the job, hands-down, every single time. “They need to support their families,” was one reason, but the overall reason was of course that the patriarchy is alive and well in the administrative areas of the Church. I already knew it was; none of this surprised me. And I was glad that he said the silent part out loud. (He probably wasn’t supposed to.) CES and the church’s universities are going to be some of the last fortresses where the patriarchy will be dismantled. The people who are employed there — mostly white, heterosexual, CIS-gendered males — don’t need to challenge the system because it provides them with privilege and comfort. There is no need to question what serves them.
“There is no need to question what serves them.” YES.
Great article, Rachel. I’m so sorry you had to go through this. I think we need to look at the final sentence: “if BYU wants to best support women, including their own female students, some of these issues need to be addressed.” and maybe start to realize that BYU does not, in fact, want to support women. The church leadership does not, in fact, care about the damage patriarchy does. The recent elections have opened my eyes to the truth that there are many, many of my fellow Americans and fellow Mormons who are just fine with misogyny and patriarchy and racism. And I am kidding myself when I think otherwise.
YES, this. This is what I was thought when I read this sentence. BYU does not want to best support women. This attitude leaks out to the Utah workplace in general. I once had a manager in a large engineering firm ask me what my religion was and how many kids I planned on having. While these questions might be ok at BYU, they are illegal elsewhere. Yet the attitude of so many men is the same and they bring their church attitude to work at places other than BYU.
I have often remembered how my only young female teacher at BYU was in a creative writing course taught by a woman with a master’s degree working on their doctorate. Every other woman was in their forties or older (child bearing years behind them), most approaching retirement age. And I probably had more woman professors because I was in Elementary Education (the only male professors there were in children’s literature and this random diversity in education class where we actually didn’t learn how to handle diversity beyond “the Spirit will guide you to love everyone.” I knitted a lot in that class so I wouldn’t fall asleep).
This post is hard proof that the hiring process at BYU is discriminatory. I’m so sorry this happened to you. It saddens and infuriates me.
However, I’m not surprised.. My family and I left in large the church 6 years ago in large part due to the church’s rampant misogyny, among other -isms. Life in the other side is sweeter and more predictable (recent election results, notwithstanding.)
As you mentioned at the end of the article and up-thread, you are much better off to have not been hired on as faculty at BYU. But it must have felt like a bait and switch to be invited to be interviewed only to be told repeatedly and in so many words that your body/identity/femaleness and inferior status in the church essentially disqualifies you for the job.
Putting you through the hiring process seems to have simply filled their need to not appear discriminatory. However it is cruel and should be illegal.
I’m glad you shared your story here. It would be amazing if the national press somehow got wind of it and published a piece on several women’ experience. That might force some change for women who come after you, small though it might be…..
*apologies for the typos! The perils of reading and commenting on blogs on your phone. 🙂
Again, SO GLAD you are getting support here and are letting your voice be heard!
Thank you so much, Wendy. It took me 7 years to be able to tell this story because I didn’t see all of the problematic elements right away; I just accepted them as part of the process and was hard on myself for failing to get the job. I know better now but I think women don’t always speak up about these things, at least right away, because it’s hard to see when you’re in it and it’s easy to blame yourself.
I’m so sorry you had to go through that. I’ve never thought about working at BYU, but I did once have a round of interviews with church magazines, of which my overriding memories are an anemic lunch in the COB basement and a long and condescending lecture from an editor. Among other things, I learned that the editor needs (or needed at that time, anyway) to be a Melchizedek priesthood holder, so they kept priesthood holders in the pipeline. Needless to say, I didn’t get the job, it went to a man. As it happened, I found a MUCH better job outside of Utah, but it still stung.
I do know people who’ve had terrible experiences interviewing at BYU, and terrible experiences once they got there. I remember when I was a student I took a class from an assistant professor who was up for promotion to associate. He didn’t get it, and was upset enough to tell our class that the committee was concerned that he was “only an elder – why isn’t he a high priest?” It’s all pretty appalling.
This is so frustrating. I’m sorry you went through this, but I’m grateful you found wonderful employment elsewhere.
I teach at a University in the music department. During my interview they asked what kind of a department I wanted to be a part of. I said, “At the end of the day, the well-being and development of the students has to matter more than anything else. More than any ensemble performance. More than any jury. More than the ego of any teacher, including myself.” It’s been hard to hold myself to that at times, but I stand by it.
How is it prioritizing the well-being of students to question (and perhaps I’m just angry and putting words in his mouth) “how will you shut up a student asking the wrong questions?” That sounds so toxic and is not going to facilitate learning and growth. It’s going to encourage the hiring of faculty who care about patriarchy and ego and the “good facade” of the church more than education. People like that belong in PR jobs, not education.
Also, congratulations on what must have been an incredible PhD thesis!
I agree completely, Malissa. The university space should be open to possibility and exploration, with questions encouraged! Questions like that in the GA interview just show that’s not the culture at BYU that faculty are supposed to uphold.
Tithation without representation.
I attended early morning seminary in a small Idaho town. Most of our volunteer (definitely unpaid) were women. Eventually a seminary building was built and released time seminary instituted. I observed that as soon as the position became paid, all the teachers have been men. Its so unjust! Women were allowed to teach if #1. It was unpaid. #2. It was very inconvenient, teachers had to be up and ready to teach at 7 a.m. This is patriarchy and it’s wrong!
This is an important post, and I appreciate your courage in sharing it. BYU should change this overbearing and sexist approach, and get rid of the loyalty oath requirement for new faculty and staff. Your story reminds me of others’ experiences who are alumni and who love the institution but now avoid working there because they see these problems and it tips the scales against working at BYU. Who wants their income tied to loyalty and obedience to religious authorities who don’t invite or listen to any input?
Ultimately I am glad I did not get the job at BYU for exactly that reason: I don’t want my career and job security tied to perceptions of my personal spiritual journey.
I’ve heard other women describe their experiences interviewing at BYU, and consistently, the General Authority interview is the most sexist part of an already sexist process.
Amen.
Such an enlightening and courageous essay; much thx for sharing this. It is obvious that BYU would have been a better university had you been accepted there, but it is also obvious that you are better by not having to be part of that benighted setup. So happy that you ended up in the Pacific Northwest – God’s True Country.
Discrimination against females is not just a BYU problem—it is an American problem. My daughter experiences misogyny at major corporations in Seattle.
Unfortunately for females, God has only mere mortals to work with in his church, and they are all products of their environment. In my daily communications with Heavenly Father, I have only felt unconditional love and support, so I try to be merciful to his misogynistic sons who still have much to learn about being Christlike. I was divorced when I experienced the BYU interview process in the 90’s, so endured additional scrutiny to assure that I wasn’t a bitter “man hater”. However, I only felt kindness and respect from all the interviewers, which included a general authority and the president of BYU. I got the job and loved teaching at BYU.
I’m envious that you got to study in Scotland and I’m sorry you had to experience the worst of Utah culture. I left Utah ten years ago, and just love my life in the Pacific Northwest.
It’s true that misogyny and patriarchy are everywhere. But there is a unique magnification of patriarchy at religious universities, unfortunately. Yay for the Pacific Northwest!